rive-sud Pont Samuel-De Champlain

[p_xavier]

Je ne comprends pas pourquoi que le PLQ a refusé de reprendre les ponts fédéraux. Avec des péages, on paie tout de toute façon!

[Malek]

Je ne comprends pas pourquoi que le PLQ a refusé de reprendre les ponts fédéraux. Avec des péages, on paie tout de toute façon!

 

Pourquoi s'embourber dans un autre projet quand tu l'est deja avec des projets 2 fois moins gros.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ToxiK]

On essaye de nous faire voir le nouveau pont Champlain comme étant un (autre) cadeau du Canada au Québec, mais il se pourrait que ce soit plutôt l'inverse. Le pont Champlain appartient au gouvernement fédéral puisqu'il franchit la Voie maritime du St-Laurent. Le Fédéral (surtout les Libéraux, admettons-le) aime bien la visibilité que le pont leur apporte. Les indications sur le pont sont bilingues/bilingual, et on rappelle aux automobilistes, tant locaux que les touristes, qu'ils sont en territoire Canadien et, accessoirement, à Montréal.

 

On nous parle d'un "cadeau" de 5 milliards de dollars (en oubliant de mentionner que le pont Champlain est en fait une responsabilité du gouvernement fédéral). Est-ce que ce sera bien le coût final du projet (ou du moins la part du Fédéral, les rampes d'accès et un éventuel SLR sont de responsabilité québécoise)? Pour compenser pour les prédictions trop basses du passé, en est-on rendu à rendu à surévaluer les coûts pour pouvoir passer pour des génies si le projet coûte moins cher que prévu? De toute façon, si le projet coûte plus cher que prévu, on dira que le cadeau offert au Québec n'en est que plus gros. Si les coûts sont plus bas, on fera en sorte que l'on se rappelle surtout du montant initial du cadeau, soit 5 milliards de dollars (ou bien, on intégrera la portion du projet qui aura été payée par le Québec pour mieux faire paraître le cadeau du Canada).

 

Passons maintenant aux péages. Il semble certain qu'il y aura un péage sur le nouveau pont, péage qui ne servira pas uniquement à payer l'entretien du pont, mais aussi à payer en partie pour les coûts de sa construction. Donc le "cadeau" du gouvernement fédéral devrait être diminué de la part qui sera payée par les automobilistes qui emprunteront le pont. Ce ne seront pas tous des Québécois, certes, mais ce sera une dépense de plus pour les automobilistes qui visiteront Montréal.

 

Puisque c'est le Canada qui fait un cadeau au Québec, ne serait-il pas logique que les emplois reliés au nouveau pont soient le plus possible répartis dans tout le Canada? On pourra toujours se servir de l'excuse que l'industrie de la construction du Québec est trop corrompue et qu'il faut donc faire appel aux autres provinces (pas pour des raisons politiques, évidemment, mais pour des raisons d'efficacité...). Sans oublier la corruption, phénomène unique au Québec, évidemment. Il est vrai que même si c'était le gouvernement provincial qui construisait le pont, il y aurait des contrats qui seraient accordés à des entreprises et à des fournisseurs hors Québec, mais avec un gouvernement fédéral qui souhaite avoir le plus de visibilité possible, on peut s'attendre à ce que les plus de contrats possibles soient accordés à des entreprises hors Québec. Probablement pas au point à ce que la grande majorité des contrats soient hors Québec, mais pour que le "cadeau" du gouvernement fédéral (qui sera en bonne partie payée par les péages) soit très profitable aux autres provinces. Sans compter qu'un peu moins du quart des impôts servant à payer ce pont proviennent du Québec.

 

Avec l'obsession des Conservateurs pour la Monarchie, il ne faudra pas se surprendre si le pont est renommé Pont Élisabeth II / Elizabeth II Bridge. Le pont prendra 10 ans à construire et il est bien possible que la Reine décède avant la fin de la construction. Les Conservateurs verraient alors un bel hommage posthume pour la Souveraine de voir son nom rattaché au pont le plus achalandé au Canada, peu importe ce que ressentiront les Québécois de se voir enfoncer un autre symbole monarchiste au travers de la gorge (en fait, cette frustration des Québécois plairait à certains groupes au Canada Anglais).

 

Maintenant que des péages auront été installés sur le pont Champlain (ou plutôt le pont Élisabeth II / Elizabeth II Bridge) et qu'ils rapportent de belles sommes au gouvernement fédéral, pourquoi ne pas installer d'autres péages sur le pont Jacques-Cartier, aussi propriété du Fédéral (et quel autre pont encore?)? Évidement, on dira que ce n'est qu'un principe d'utilisateur-payeur tout a fait justifié. Il est bien certain qu'une partie des revenus serviront à l'entretien du pont. Cependant, l'appétit du Fédéral est énorme, et on verra une belle occasion de gonfler du gouvernement fédéral. Et comme Montréal est une île et que sa principale banlieue est de l'autre côté de deux des ponts les plus achalandés au Canada, des ponts appartenant au gouvernement du Canada, l'occasion est trop belle. Surtout que c'est une situation plutôt unique au Canada. On ne pourra pas imposer ce genre de péages à d'autres villes. Donc seule Montréal (et tout le Québec) en souffrira et le Canada en profitera. Sans oublier qu'on ne comptera pas les revenus de ces ponts comme étant une part de la contribution québécoise dans la Fédération canadienne. Le Québec paiera toujours un peu moins d'impôts que la proportion de sa population, mais puisque les revenus de ces ponts ne sont techniquement pas des impôts, on ne les comptera pas quand on dira au Canada Anglais que le Québec ne fait jamais sa part et profite éternellement du Canada (et reçoit des cadeau de 5 milliards de dollars, comme un nouveau pont....).

 

En résumé, ce "cadeau" du Canada, qui est en fait une responsabilité fédérale, sera payé en bonne partie par les Québécois, profitera largement aux entreprises des autres provinces, servira à augmenter la visibilité du gouvernement fédéral au Québec, fera la promotion de la Monarchie et servira de prétexte pour ajouter d'autres péages au profit du gouvernement du Canada. Sans compter les retombées politiques pour les Conservateurs au Québec...

[ToxiK]

Wow Toxik - you're optimistic!

 

Why do we love to be naysayers all the time

 

I am not saying the bridge won't be build ot that it will fall down, just that the Federal Government will milk it as much as they can to look good outside of Québec (where their political base is). And if to look good, they have to make Québec look bad, they will.

[MARTY]

yeah toxik,

You have the right name...Toxic!! Yeah! Baby, blast Canada at every opportunity...the PQ and the Separatists are the solution to Quebec's problems. Keep the blind fold on and keep spewing your venom...After all in Quebec we practice the politics of division and confrontation.The PQ is doing everything right...they go after a hospital in Lachine, they go after a special volunteer program in NDG, they go after every little sign in English. You can't buy a toy in Quebec that speaks in English...check out Toys' R Us....but they send me my fucking taxes in English!! I have kept my cool on this hot topic but enough already...This is a Skyscraper and real estate development lovers' website... not a fuckin Ranting site for politicos who have a giant ax to grind.

 

Now as far as the fuckin Champlain bridge is concerned get that fucker built and that's that!!!

Modifié 16 janvier 2013 par MARTY

[ToxiK]

yeah toxik,

You have the right name...Toxic!! Yeah! Baby, blast Canada at every opportunity...the PQ and the Separatists are the solution to Quebec's problems. Keep the blind fold on and keep spewing your venom...After all in Quebec we practice the politics of division and confrontation.The PQ is doing everything right...they go after a hospital in Lachine, they go after a special volunteer program in NDG, they go after every little sign in English. You can't buy a toy in Quebec that speaks in English...check out Toys' R Us....but they send me my fucking taxes in English!! I have kept my cool on this hot topic but enough already...This is a Skyscraper and real estate development lovers' website... not a fuckin Ranting site for politicos who have a giant ax to grind.

 

Now as far as the fuckin Champlain bridge is concerned get that fucker built and that's that!!!

 

you are attacking the wrong person. I am not a sovereignist and i didn't vote for the PQ. But I am a realist. If the Federal Government is to put 5 billions $ for a bridge in Montréal, you can be sure they will make a lot of publicity about it and try to gain as much political advantages as they can. And since the conservative political base it outside Québec (where it is not well seen to "give" anything to Québec), then they will have to make sure the ROC gets as much as possible out of it. If the PQ ever does something for Montréal in their mandate (maybe expand the Blue Line of the metro), they will make sure that everyone knows about it and that the wealth of this investment is spread as much as possible to their base. The Liberal did the same when they gave the contract to the Bombardier plant in La Pocatière for the new metro wagons. That is how that works, unfortunately. And I am affraid that the cost of that bridge could be higher than it would have been if the Federal Government didn't own it.

[ToxiK]

the head of the ministry of transport is Denis Lebel - who from all accounts is a hugely nationalist.

 

Be careful what you say - unfounded opinions don't really add up to much. The conservative govt is not trying to intentionally screw Quebec -would be nice if we voted for governments that actually have a chance (and im no conservative)

 

I am sure that like all Québec ministers, he has a very strong voice in the government...

 

Even if he is a nationalist and sincere, he still has a job to do. If he makes it look that he is giving too much to Québec (and it doesn't take much to look like that for some people), then it will hurt his party in the ROC. He is stuck too. What would you do in his place?

[MARTY]

Toxik, I apologize if I jumped at you like a mad man...It's just so fuckin nonsensical with the politics in Quebec.....Come on, you know that every political group: may they be federalist, separatist, NDP, Communist, Maoist, will try to score points with the public whenever they come out with a project...I am so fed up with the shit that we put up with in Quebec... The shit concerning the Dorval circle...no one has any idea on what to do ...it is now going to be ready in 2017??? ...the Champlain bridge, the Mercier bridge, the Notre Dame revitalization, the Metro extension to the East and 2 of the biggest cities in Quebec with Mayoral resignations....Geez Louise....I would shut the fuck up if I was a Quebec politician and make fuckin sure that we put our house in order before daring to criticize other levels of government....And don't blame the PLQ or the PQ...it's the culture of bad politics in Quebec. Jean Lesage, Daniel Johnson Sr, as well as Jean Drapeau and Robert Bourassa I dare say were the last true movers and doers....what we've had in the last 25 years are pretenders. Caught up in the never ending referendum, Meech lake....All that and yet we are sitting in pretty good in this Confederation of Canada in comparison with the rest of the world. Imagine how good we could be if we worked together instead of confrontational politics for the sole purpose of endearing themselves to their respective supporters.

 

I hate arguments just for the sake of arguing!! Argue, debate, compromise and get things done, now that's the way to go.

[ToxiK]

Toxik, I apologize if I jumped at you like a mad man...It's just so fuckin nonsensical with the politics in Quebec.....Come on, you know that every political group: may they be federalist, separatist, NDP, Communist, Maoist, will try to score points with the public whenever they come out with a project...I am so fed up with the shit that we put up with in Quebec... The shit concerning the Dorval circle...no one has any idea on what to do ...it is now going to be ready in 2017??? ...the Champlain bridge, the Mercier bridge, the Notre Dame revitalization, the Metro extension to the East and 2 of the biggest cities in Quebec with Mayoral resignations....Geez Louise....I would shut the fuck up if I was a Quebec politician and make fuckin sure that we put our house in order before daring to criticize other levels of government....And don't blame the PLQ or the PQ...it's the culture of bad politics in Quebec. Jean Lesage, Daniel Johnson Sr, as well as Jean Drapeau and Robert Bourassa I dare say were the last true movers and doers....what we've had in the last 25 years are pretenders. Caught up in the never ending referendum, Meech lake....All that and yet we are sitting in pretty good in this Confederation of Canada in comparison with the rest of the world. Imagine how good we could be if we worked together instead of confrontational politics for the sole purpose of endearing themselves to their respective supporters.

 

I hate arguments just for the sake of arguing!! Argue, debate, compromise and get things done, now that's the way to go.

 

Don't worry about it. I still think that politics can be discusses civilly, but that doesn't exclude a peak on anger once in a while. It just meant that we are alive (but let's face it, some people a just too much alive... )...

 

For the bridge, I am afraid that the Government will try to profit (politically) too much from it. Of course, they will want to take the credits for building it, that is natural. But by overdoing it, they might just make the resentment against Québec even worst. And in the end, that is not good for us. I am still hoping to get a great bridge. That is an opportunity that rises only once in a generation (and only if we are Lucky). I hope to see a bridge big enough for traffic and trucks, with passages for pedestrians and bikes and a highly efficient modern light rail that will be at least as good as a metro extension. I also wish for an great architecture, our own Golden Gate (it is the most occupied bridge in Canada, after all), I wish a bridge that will make Jacques-Cartier look like Mercier...

 

Let's hope for the best!

[Né entre les rapides]

Meanwhile, back in China, it's one new bridge per day! (perhaps a little exagerated, but then again, perhaps not, if you include smaller structures...) Do we live on the same planet? Or is it that we (I really mean our politicians) have learned tricks from Maurice Duplessis, the long-serving Premier of Québec--1936-39 and 1944-59? Do you know/remember/heard of a particular trick? Here it is: promise (eg. a bridge) during election campaign no 1; begin construction just before election no 2; and open the bridge just before election no 3. But at least, he promised 1000 bridges, and he built 1000! (no exageration btw). And things went even faster under Jean Lesage: imagine, in six/seven years (Johnson in 1967 saw the completion of some): the Metro, Trans-Canada, Expo 67, Décarie, Bonaventure, Champlain, LH Lafontaine, A-20/132, A-40 Rive-Nord, A-10 Cantons-de-l'Est, Manicouagan etc., and all this with a population of 5 millions and no modern computers. Can you believe it? Dare to compare with the present time. But I will be fair: about the same things happened in Ontario and the USA.