Le Globe and Mail détruit Montréal...

[Maisonneuve]

Hey Saskatoon is pretty cool, I mean, Sas-ka-toon come on

 

Montrealers in general are still living in the afterglow of Expo and are somewhat aware but confused about how Toronto leapfrogged Montreal (appears to have started from the construction of the Seaway, but the political events of the 1970's pushed the decline over the edge).

 

 

Not factual Cyrus, it started way before that in the 19th century.

[Maisonneuve]

"It wasn’t city hall’s fault, it’s just the sort of thing that seems to happen in Montreal."

 

This is the unfortunate thing. Sometimes there's no one person to blame, but a political system laid down by past governments and old or deceased politicians that became habitual over the decades by successive leaders. It's like trying to pin point the person(s) to blame for racism.

[TomOfBoston]

Ça peut sembler ridicule, mais quand je lis ce genre de chose, je pense tout de suite à Wilson, dans House, qu'on peut souvent voir avec un sweat-shirt de McGill.

 

Mais bon, c'est juste une remarque.

 

The anti-Montreal sentiment in the rest of Canada, especially Toronto, is not just anti-French, although that is a big part of it. It is also anti-English Montreal. They cannot comprehend why there are still 700,000 to 900,000 anglophones (depends on the definition of anglophone) still living in Quebec. They consider English Quebecers to be masochists or whatever.

 

In forums like collegeconfidential.com and others, English Canadians constantly refer to McGill as "overrated" and try to make the university out to be some sort of decrepit relic from the past, barely able to hold its own against their junior colleges. In the posts I quoted earlier "Ivyleaguer" chimed in because he couldn't stand reading someone who was being positive about the university and Montreal. He was not respondiong to a question, he was just trying to "set the record straight" from a Torontonian's perspective.

[ToxiK]

The anti-Montreal sentiment in the rest of Canada, especially Toronto, is not just anti-French, although that is a big part of it. It is also anti-English Montreal. They cannot comprehend why there are still 700,000 to 900,000 anglophones (depends on the definition of anglophone) still living in Quebec. They consider English Quebecers to be masochists or whatever.

 

In forums like collegeconfidential.com and others, English Canadians constantly refer to McGill as "overrated" and try to make the university out to be some sort of decrepit relic from the past, barely able to hold its own against their junior colleges. In the posts I quoted earlier "Ivyleaguer" chimed in because he couldn't stand reading someone who was being positive about the university and Montreal. He was not respondiong to a question, he was just trying to "set the record straight" from a Torontonian's perspective.

 

 

 

We are in Toronto's way! They want to be the number 1 city in the world, or at least as high as possible (can't blame them for being ambitious), and we are still in their way. They feel the 700-900 thousands Anglophones should be living in Toronto to help grow their population. We still have a big finance sector in Montreal, and they feel it should all be in Toronto. They complain Bombardier is receiving too much subsidies (they wouldn't complain in Bombardier was in Toronto), but they don't have a problem when the auto industry is getting subsidies. We had the Olympics and they still haven't had them (probably why they love to point out all the problems our Olympics had). We get tourists to visit old Montreal while they don't have much of an old city to visit. They might be able to steal our festivals, but they can't fake an old Toronto. McGill is a very prestigious university and it isn't located in Toronto: It is an aberration.

 

 

They managed to take away many head offices (helped in part by the waking up of Francophones and the threat of separation), our stock exchange and a big part of our financial industry (improving Toronto financial standing in the world), they have the biggest airport in Canada while we lost many of our traffic (and during that time, the federal government "generously gave" us Mirabel, paid by all of Canada). We had a good film festival and the world number one jazz and comedy festivals, so they fund the TIFF, they get their hands on their own version of Just for Laughs and create their jazz festival (by the way, why especially jazz? Isn't there many more musical genres they could have chose??). The hope is not only to get those events, but to make sure Montréal's festivals lose some prestige. It is like a 4 point game in hockey: if you beat a team in your own division, not only do you get 2 points, but the other team doesn't get those 2 points.

 

 

And to add insult to injury, others reasons they have a grudge against us, Francophones woke up and wanted to take their place in Montréal's society and economy. How dared we (Québécois) stand up and not stay in our designated place? Could English Canada tolerate a metropolis where French-Canadians hold a predominant place? How could a city with a French majority dared to stand against Toronto? And then, there were the PQ and the separatist movement. That was treason, right? And let's not forget hockey. How come the Canadiens won 10 Stanley Cups since the last one by the Maple Leafs? If not for the Canadiens, those Stanley Cups would all have been one by Toronto (yeah, right!)...

 

 

In Montréal, we still hold many festivals, the Grand Prix, a few good museums, some high tech industries, universities, manufactures, aerospace industries, a good finance sector, a major port and many head offices. Toronto wants all that. And they are working to get it. If they win and get all that, then watch out Ottawa: you're next!

[Cyrus]

And to add insult to injury, others reasons they have a grudge against us, Francophones woke up and wanted to take their place in Montréal's society and economy. How dared we (Québécois) stand up and not stay in our designated place? Could English Canada tolerate a metropolis where French-Canadians hold a predominant place? How could a city with a French majority dared to stand against Toronto? And then, there were the PQ and the separatist movement. That was treason, right? And let's not forget hockey. How come the Canadiens won 10 Stanley Cups since the last one by the Maple Leafs? If not for the Canadiens, those Stanley Cups would all have been one by Toronto (yeah, right!)...

 

 

In Montréal, we still hold many festivals, the Grand Prix, a few good museums, some high tech industries, universities, manufactures, aerospace industries, a good finance sector, a major port and many head offices. Toronto wants all that. And they are working to get it. If they win and get all that, then watch out Ottawa: you're next!

 

Come on, let's not go crazy with the Groulxesque mythology. The only reason that the Quebec economy was dominated by Scotsmen was your stupid religion, not language. After all, the Irish were even worse off than the francophones, and only once Quebecers in general abandoned Catholicism, did Quebec Inc. appear

 

The Montreal-Toronto thing seems like the Quebec-Montreal thing. Nobody in Montreal cares about Quebec City, but everyone in Quebec City always rags about Montreal. Everyone in Montreal rags about TO (what's the best part of Toronto? The road to Montreal!) but does anyone care in TO about Montreal? I've been to TO many times and never had such discussions (admittedly, I never sought them, "my city is better than yours" seems trite and impolite). And even in TO, people hate the Leafs

Modifié 19 juillet 2010 par Cyrus

[LindbergMTL]

Que des torontois s'évertuent à rabaisser Montréal, bon, c'est de bonne guerre, mais il y a un ou deux montréalais qui le font aussi...

[ToxiK]

Come on, let's not go crazy with the Groulxesque mythology. The only reason that the Quebec economy was dominated by Scotsmen was your stupid religion, not language. After all, the Irish were even worse off than the francophones, and only once Quebecers in general abandoned Catholicism, did Quebec Inc. appear

 

The Montreal-Toronto thing seems like the Quebec-Montreal thing. Nobody in Montreal cares about Quebec City, but everyone in Quebec City always rags about Montreal. Everyone in Montreal rags about TO (what's the best part of Toronto? The road to Montreal!) but does anyone care in TO about Montreal? I've been to TO many times and never had such discussions (admittedly, I never sought them, "my city is better than yours" seems trite and impolite). And even in TO, people hate the Leafs

 

Of course religion was a part of this. Religion was invented to make sure those who were in power stayed in power (remember, there is a big difference between God (or Gods) and religion). Since the Conquest, English used the Catholic religion (the English being protestant didn’t had much love for "papists") to control the newly conquered French. The Church didn't approved of their members acquiring wealth, and the English were all too happy to take that burden away form the French. And with money, comes power. And you have power, you don't want to lose it.

[Cataclaw]

Montreal has attitude, something Toronto lacks.

 

If Toronto is 5th avenue in NYC, Montreal is 2nd avenue.

 

First thing a tourist does in Toronto? Visit the CN Tower.

First thing a tourist does in Montreal? Go to old Montreal or bask in the nightlife or go to jazz fest.

 

Toronto is business.

Montreal is culture.

 

Toronto is "Hello there"

Montreal is "Kein mon esti"

 

An ex-gf of mine who had spent many years in Toronto and then moved to Montreal put it quite nicely: Montreal just has life coursing through its veins.

Modifié 19 juillet 2010 par Cataclaw

[Cyrus]

Of course religion was a part of this. Religion was invented to make sure those who were in power stayed in power (remember, there is a big difference between God (or Gods) and religion). Since the Conquest, English used the Catholic religion (the English being protestant didn’t had much love for "papists") to control the newly conquered French. The Church didn't approved of their members acquiring wealth, and the English were all too happy to take that burden away form the French. And with money, comes power. And you have power, you don't want to lose it.

 

I would say the Conquest was the conquest of the French but not the Quebecois... the conquest brought a lot of newfound liberty to this place. Under the ancien regime it was illegal to print a book, to have a newspaper, to have any kind of manufacturing and they had the tithe and feudal system! I would say the Church was the primary "repressive" element after the Conquest, but the English didn't care either way. After all, 250 years later everyone speaks French here... the Quebecois never were expulsed or otherwise screwed like the Acadians...

[uqam+]

Je crois que Cyrus, cette fois, est dans les patates, et plusieurs fois plutôt qu'une...

 

On se soucie beaucoup plus de Montréal à Toronto que l'inverse. Ne pas oublier que notre présent débat découle d'un article du Globe and Mail. Il y a plusieurs dossiers par année dans les médias de Toronto sur Montréal. L'inverse n'est pas vrai du tout. Il y a quelques années, un magazine branché de Toronto avait même fait un dossier sur "all things montrealish you can do in Toronto !" Difficile d'imaginer l'inverse...

 

En fait, la principale attitude des Québécois francophones à l'égard du Canada anglais est une forme d'indifférence. Ce sont les anglos, ici, qui ont se questionnent sur Toronto, pour la dénigrer parfois exagérément ou pour la vanter parfois exagérément aussi.

 

Ce qui m'agace personnellement dans l'attitude des médias canadiens anglais à l'égard du Québec, c'est d'y voir si souvent - pas toujours - la même mesquinerie hypocrite et immature. Si j'étais torontois, j'aurais honte. De semblables obsessions témoignent d'un manque d'assurance et d'un caractère très provincial...

 

Le Canada anglais, en réalité, n'a jamais fait sa révolution tranquille, sa modernisation identitaire. D'un côté, toujours les mêmes vieilleries monarchiques pour conserver une apparence de différence avec les États-Unis. Et de l'autre côté, presque tout ce qu'il y a de moderne, politiquement, dans ce pays, est venu du Québec ou sous la pression du Québec. (bilinguisme, rapatriement de la constitution, système métrique, multiculturalisme de Trudeau, lois sur les financements des partis politiques, etc. - l'exception majeure étant le système de santé public)

 

Cette alliance de passivité politique du Canada anglais avec un Québec turbulent qui poussait au changement a crée un profond ressentiment qu'on voit se déployer constamment. Dommage. Car il faudrait réussir à dépasser tout cela.

 

À une petite échelle, pour nous, une bonne façon serait de parler de Toronto en rendant justice à cette ville qui a quand même des atouts considérables.

 

Quand à la conquête, c'est tout à fait simpliste de nier qu'elle a eu des effets négatifs, tout autant que positifs, pour les Canadiens de l'époque. Mais je touche ici à un des mythes fondateurs du Canada anglais : l'idée d'être une nation moralement supérieure, qui n'a jamais nui à personne, ce qui signifie que la conquête DOIT avoir été aussi une bonne chose et uniquement une bonne chose pour les Québécois. Je connais très peu de Canadiens anglais qui osent questionner ce mythe fondateur.

Modifié 19 juillet 2010 par uqam+