montréal REM de l'Est

[vincenzo]

I would prefer that the REM B go underground below Notre Dame all the way to RB to join the REM B.

However, a light structure like this in South Korea could work on RL.

[SameGuy]

1 hour ago, vincenzo said:

I would prefer that the REM B go underground below Notre Dame all the way to RB to join the REM B.

However, a light structure like this in South Korea could work on RL.

https://www.zja.nl/en/Elevated-Lightrail-System-South-Korea

That would certainly be a signature.

[Kodun]

il y a 42 minutes, FrodoMTL a dit :

I think we are exaggerating a bit here. Sure, it's a long transfer from Metro Blue to REM (up stairs, through a tunnel, and back down an elevator to the REM platform). There's some walking involved, but there is also an underground walkway that connects the Metro and REM, so you don't have to exit the station or walk to street level. Also, do we actually know for sure people will need to exit/re-enter fare gates between Blue Line and REM-A? With the underground walkway and future fare integration between STM and REM, it's totally conceivable that they can forego this.

Further, there are plenty of modern metro systems in North America and around the world that have far longer transfers, especially between 2 independently operated systems:

 - Toronto Union (transfer between GO and TTC Subway is far more convoluted than Eduard Montpetit, yet it still manages to handle 72 million riders each year transferring between GO/VIA and TTC). Is it a lot of walking? Yes. Are there a lot of stairs and turns? Yes. But it works and people have gotten used to it.

- Toronto Spadina Station, which involves a 150 m tunnel walk between Line 1 and Line 2 subway. Is it long? Yes, it's a long walk, but once again, people have gotten used to it and Spadina has become one of the busiest stations on the TTC network (1st image below)

- Shanghai People's Square Station - which involves a massive underground transfer hall. On average each transfer takes at least a 5 min walk between one line to the next. Oh and that doesn't include mandatory security checkpoints and bag scans at all fare gates to prevent terrorist attacks...

- Lastly, even the transfer from Orange to Blue line at Jean Talon isn't exactly "smooth" - it's a lot of escalators, stairs, and walking (if the escalators were not under constant repair)... And once again, we've all gotten used to it.

 

What I'm trying to say is that the interchange design at Eduard Montpetit isn't perfect - far from it. But it's far from being the "all that bad" especially when looking at examples elsewhere. As a future prospective user (as I live near that station and will need to commute downtown daily), I'm more than happy with the current design and won't complain.

Thanks for your time to elaborate your point of view. It's the kind of discussion needed in this era of complacency and polarization.

It's ok to compare with other transfer stations around the globe but it needs to be put into perspective as they all have their own set of reasons and might only compare on some metrics and not the overall. My idea is to look at the actual situation of ÉMpetit, what could've been reasonably done and what was chosen and depicted as the best solution.

The main advantage of ÉMpetit blue line station is that it was built on top of the mountain tunnel, moreover at the location of (one of?) it's ventilation shaft. This, in comparision with many other transfer stations around the globe, is a major advantage as it limits the necessary corridors or horizontal movements. What's not advantageuous is, of course, the vertical distance. There is no perfect solution and the use of fast elevators is probably the only reasonnable solution. But why make them all stop at the top and impose going down the rabbit hole once again? Why not build a level at the blue line bridge between platforms? It's like extending your house with only outdoor access but, hey, you saved on a door! Not the wisest move unless it's for a captive tenent that has no other choice but to rent it after.. Which brings me to the fundamentals of this whole affair.

I do exagerate some times, usually to highlight what i consider to be underlying, getting out of the comfort zone when i know something bad might be brewing and was sadly predictable.

For me, it's crystal clear that the decisions they take are not for what they brag for, which in this particular case is offering a good transfer, but just to give an "opportunity" of it. It might not have been that much hard and expensive to offer a more direct option, but we will never know. It's important to remember that this tranfer was not originaly planned, they were forced to and it seems legitimate to ask if they really worked on offering the best solution or just give the minimum so they can go on? Seems to be a question that answers itself if you ask me.

On the full scope of this "bout de la marde" partnership, what really grinds my gears is the way the government bypasses it's own rules and seems to have no moral in doing it. They look like that boss that promotes employees that are good at their position to another where they have no qualifications by overly minimizing the tasks and responsibilities, creating dependancy as the promoted will do anything to please and keep it's unbearable position since he's not qualified for it. Nowadays, that would be a total wreck for any private company, but seems to still be totaly viable with the government, moreover when they feel they can do whatever they want.

We should seriously ask ourselves if it's responsible, as a society, as Montrealers, to accept and sign eyes closed blueprints that are drawn like urban planing is a joke without having a single finished and working product? Furthermore, that should be the way or the highway? Is mandating the owner's meth head son for renovating the whole house respectuf of ourselves for years of negligence by the owner's dad? Shall we let him finish the house when the first room he's in is not done and shows signs of tacky rounded corners and he's already decided that he's gonna build a wall in the middle of the kitchen cause that's the only way he's gonna bring a pipe to the second floor?

The future transfer might not be "that bad" but certainly nothing more than the soulless solution drawn on a napkin by the bothered coffee guy of the complain department in the second basement by the water heater, something that impedes the less the original plan, which was no transfer at all.

[SameGuy]

1 hour ago, Kodun said:

They look like that boss that promotes employees that are good at their position to another where they have no qualifications by overly minimizing the tasks and responsibilities, creating dependancy as the promoted will do anything to please and keep it's unbearable position since he's not qualified for it. Nowadays, that would be a total wreck for any private company, but seems to still be totaly viable with the government, moreover when they feel they can do whatever they want.

To be fair, CDPQi is only the promoter and owner; they put out a RFP and accepted bids tendered by consortia of very experienced and qualified firms.

[andre md]

Il y a 1 heure, SameGuy a dit :

https://www.zja.nl/en/Elevated-Lightrail-System-South-Korea

That would certainly be a signature.

ZJA c'est la meme firme neerlandaise qui a concu la voie sureleveé de train léger de La Haye.

Faut croire qu'ils attire l'attention avec ce projet. 

On verra peut etre bientot cette structure en corée. 

J'espere si on y va pour une voie surelevé sur R-L que l'on va s'en inspiré. 

Mais on va peut etre trouver des excuse pour ne pas faire quelque chose d'acceptable pour sauver de l'argent. 

 

 

[andre md]

Il y a 1 heure, Kodun a dit :

Thanks for your time to elaborate your point of view. It's the kind of discussion needed in this era of complacency and polarization.

It's ok to compare with other transfer stations around the globe but it needs to be put into perspective as they all have their own set of reasons and might only compare on some metrics and not the overall. My idea is to look at the actual situation of ÉMpetit, what could've been reasonably done and what was chosen and depicted as the best solution.

The main advantage of ÉMpetit blue line station is that it was built on top of the mountain tunnel, moreover at the location of (one of?) it's ventilation shaft. This, in comparision with many other transfer stations around the globe, is a major advantage as it limits the necessary corridors or horizontal movements. What's not advantageuous is, of course, the vertical distance. There is no perfect solution and the use of fast elevators is probably the only reasonnable solution. But why make them all stop at the top and impose going down the rabbit hole once again? Why not build a level at the blue line bridge between platforms? It's like extending your house with only outdoor access but, hey, you saved on a door! Not the wisest move unless it's for a captive tenent that has no other choice but to rent it after.. Which brings me to the fundamentals of this whole affair.

I do exagerate some times, usually to highlight what i consider to be underlying, getting out of the comfort zone when i know something bad might be brewing and was sadly predictable.

For me, it's crystal clear that the decisions they take are not for what they brag for, which in this particular case is offering a good transfer, but just to give an "opportunity" of it. It might not have been that much hard and expensive to offer a more direct option, but we will never know. It's important to remember that this tranfer was not originaly planned, they were forced to and it seems legitimate to ask if they really worked on offering the best solution or just give the minimum so they can go on? Seems to be a question that answers itself if you ask me.

On the full scope of this "bout de la marde" partnership, what really grinds my gears is the way the government bypasses it's own rules and seems to have no moral in doing it. They look like that boss that promotes employees that are good at their position to another where they have no qualifications by overly minimizing the tasks and responsibilities, creating dependancy as the promoted will do anything to please and keep it's unbearable position since he's not qualified for it. Nowadays, that would be a total wreck for any private company, but seems to still be totaly viable with the government, moreover when they feel they can do whatever they want.

We should seriously ask ourselves if it's responsible, as a society, as Montrealers, to accept and sign eyes closed blueprints that are drawn like urban planing is a joke without having a single finished and working product? Furthermore, that should be the way or the highway? Is mandating the owner's meth head son for renovating the whole house respectuf of ourselves for years of negligence by the owner's dad? Shall we let him finish the house when the first room he's in is not done and shows signs of tacky rounded corners and he's already decided that he's gonna build a wall in the middle of the kitchen cause that's the only way he's gonna bring a pipe to the second floor?

The future transfer might not be "that bad" but certainly nothing more than the soulless solution drawn on a napkin by the bothered coffee guy of the complain department in the second basement by the water heater, something that impedes the less the original plan, which was no transfer at all.

Outside transfert isn't so appropriate when it's raining , snowing , chilly weather etc...

It's mind me about the 2 trains stations not so far from each other.  Station Ahuntsic on train de l'est line and Station Chabanel on St-Jerome line. We need to pass across the parking lots of the marché central power center which one isn't so pedestrian friendly. How much would it cost to built a small sidewalk along the tracks to get access to each stations? 

 

 

[Decel]

Il y a 3 heures, SameGuy a dit :

https://www.zja.nl/en/Elevated-Lightrail-System-South-Korea

That would certainly be a signature.

 

Citation

Elevated tracks

The requirements that the new South Korean system had to meet were ambitious.  As an underground track on this scale was too costly, an elevated double track was applied here. But then with enough elevation and with as little number of outstanding columns as possible so that the area close to the tracks does not see its quality of living deteriorate or impaired. This asked for an elevation of 15 meters and columns that are placed not less than a staggering 200 meters apart.

C'est le genre de spécifications que je m'attends à être imposé par le client (ie: le gouvernement). Ce n'est généralement pas à la firme réalisatrice de se restreindre.

[crosbyshow]

Il y a 5 heures, SameGuy a dit :

https://www.zja.nl/en/Elevated-Lightrail-System-South-Korea

That would certainly be a signature.

J'avoue que cela pourrait être cool.

 

Bien hâte de voir le projet qui sera retenu mais un projet signature de la sorte pourrait être bien reçu.

[champdemars]

il y a 1 minute, crosbyshow a dit :

J'avoue que cela pourrait être cool.

 

Bien hâte de voir le projet qui sera retenu mais un projet signature de la sorte pourrait être bien reçu.

À voir les commentaires sur Facebook et dans les médias, il faut absolument que ce soit de ce calibre, sinon le projet va se faire descendre.

[Nameless_1]

Analyse : Le REM est une drogue dure

Le type de station du Réseau express métropolitain qui apparaîtra sur la rue Notre-Dame.

PHOTO : CAISSE DE DÉPÔT ET PLACEMENT DU QUÉBEC

Michel C. Auger 

Publié à 4 h 01

Le REM est comme une drogue dure pour politiciens : on sait que ça pourrait être mauvais à long terme, mais l’effet instantané qu’il procure est trop fort pour y résister.

À quelques mois des élections, on peut promettre de construire un nouveau réseau de transport en commun dans un territoire politiquement rentable, avec un projet clé en main dont on n’aura pas à s’occuper.

Le politique n’aura pas à se salir les mains de ces décisions potentiellement  impopulaires sur le tracé ou les inévitables inconvénients comme les expropriations ou les chantiers. L'intendance, un partenaire de confiance va s’en occuper : la Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec et sa filiale CPDQ-Infra.

Signez ici, Monsieur le premier ministre, la Caisse s’occupe de tout. Vous n’aurez qu’à couper le ruban à l’inauguration. C’est comme avoir le beurre et l’argent du beurre.

Mais comme dans toute transaction de ce type, le fournisseur sait qu’il doit créer une relation de dépendance pour son client. Le rapport de force est donc inversé.

On l’a vu cette semaine quand, dans une entrevue à La Presse, le premier ministre François Legault a parlé pour la première fois de son idée de REM de Châteauguay à Boucherville. L’annonce n’était pas que le gouvernement voulait le REM sur la Rive Sud, mais plutôt que la Caisse était intéressée par le projet!

Ce n’est pas le gouvernement qui décide. Il ne fait que proposer et c’est la Caisse qui dispose. Après, on s’étonnera qu’elle ait pu dicter ses conditions.

Ce faisant, le gouvernement abdique ses responsabilités, y compris celle de choisir le moyen le plus efficace et qui a le plus de chances de convaincre les automobilistes de choisir le transport en commun. 

Par exemple, un voyage en métro de 20 ou 30 minutes peut facilement s’effectuer debout pour la plupart des usagers. Mais quand on dépasse l’heure de trajet, les usagers voudront être assis. Sur de longues distances, un système d’autobus confortables sur des voies réservées pourrait bien être plus efficace à bien meilleur coût que les petits wagons du REM. Mais pour la Caisse, il n’y a qu’un seul modèle d’affaires et une seule technologie. C’est toujours à prendre ou à laisser.

Les coûts du modèle d’affaires

Mais ce modèle d’affaires a d’énormes coûts pour la collectivité. D’abord, parce que c’est la Caisse — via sa filiale CPDQ-Infra — qui dicte les aspects financiers. De la contribution des gouvernements à la construction aux redevances que, comme opérateur, elle recevra ensuite.

C’est ainsi que la Caisse a pu exiger du gouvernement libéral de l’époque une redevance de 72 cents le passager/kilomètre parcouru, ce qui est nettement exagéré quand on sait que c’est quatre fois plus que le SkyTrain de Vancouver dont la Caisse est aussi l’exploitant. Des sommes qui viendront siphonner le budget du transport en commun à Montréal pour des générations.

Notons aussi que la Caisse devient propriétaire de toutes les infrastructures publiques, comme le tunnel sous le Mont-Royal, dans un contrat de 198 ans, mais dont elle pourra se retirer au bout de cinq ans et vendre sa participation à quiconque, y compris une société étrangère.

En passant, notons que le REM de l’Ouest et celui de l’Est ne connectent pas. L’un a son terminus à la Gare centrale, l’autre, à quelques centaines de mètres de là, angle René-Lévesque et Robert-Bourassa. Ils pourraient aussi ne pas avoir le même matériel roulant, dit CPDQ-Infra. Pourquoi? On ne peut s’empêcher de penser que le REM serait plus facile à vendre en pièces détachées…

Le premier ministre Couillard voyait le REM comme son legs et il a approuvé tout ce que la Caisse lui demandait. Que ce soit le tracé, la technologie ou la propriété d’infrastructures publiques pour le REM. Parce que si on ne donne pas à la Caisse tout ce qu’elle demande, elle répond qu’il n’y aura pas de REM, et c’est tout.

Le train en hauteur

Dans le projet du REM de l’Est, la Caisse veut utiliser la même technologie, qui exige de construire en hauteur pour une large partie du tracé — ce qui coûte entre deux et trois fois plus cher que de construire au sol. Pourquoi ce choix technologique? Parce qu’il permet d’avoir des trains sans conducteur, alors qu’au sol, il est impératif d’avoir une supervision humaine.

La Ville de Montréal s’inquiète, à bon droit, d’un train suspendu au niveau du 4e ou 5e étage des édifices du boulevard René-Lévesque entre le pont Jacques-Cartier et la Place Ville-Marie, avec des trains qui passeraient aux deux minutes à environ cinq mètres de la façade des édifices. C’est vrai aussi sur Sherbrooke est.

Outre la balafre sur une des artères les plus prestigieuses de la Ville, cela entraînera une perte de valeur foncière importante. Essayez donc de louer des bureaux ou de vendre des condos aux étages où ne verra et entendra que le train du REM qui passe aux deux minutes!

La Ville suggère de faire passer le REM en sous-terrain? Impossible, inutile de discuter, répond le nouveau président de CPDQ-Infra, Jean-Marc Arbaud. Le centre-ville risquerait littéralement de s’effondrer, dit-il, en se basant sur six scénarios de construction en sous-terrain que personne n’a vus et qui n’ont pas été soumis à quelque lecture critique que ce soit.

La transparence

Parce que la transparence, ce n’est pas pour CPDQ-Infra. C’est ainsi qu’on a aucune indication officielle des dépassements de coûts de la première phase du REM vers la Rive-Sud, l’aéroport et l’Ouest de l’Ile. Pourtant, dès le premier budget du Québec après l’annonce du projet, la facture totale du gouvernement du Québec était déjà passée de 1,283 milliard à 2,483 milliards de dollars.

Avec le résultat que le projet qui, initialement, devait coûter 5,5 milliards de dollars s’en va allègrement vers une facture finale de plus de 8 milliards — une estimation, puisque la CPDQ-Infra ne se soumet à aucun exercice régulier de reddition de comptes et que le gouvernement ne lui en demande aucun, ce qui est incroyable pour un projet de cette envergure.

Ce qu’on sait, par contre, c’est qu’il y a eu des factures-surprises pour les partenaires, comme celle de 80 millions pour l’antenne vers l’aéroport ou celle des municipalités de l’Ile de Montréal qui passera de 60 à 220 millions.

La dernière fois qu’on a vu un chantier de cette envergure se réaliser sans aucune transparence, ça s’est appelé le Stade olympique. On se souvient du résultat.

Avant de promettre le REM dans l’Est, à Laval, et sur la Rive-Sud, la simple prudence serait d’attendre de voir ce qui arrivera de la Phase Un. De voir des trains rouler ne serait-ce que quelques kilomètres. Ou passer un premier hiver.

Mais non. Pour des politiciens, le REM est une drogue dure. On veut promettre tout de suite. Et tant pis pour le long terme.

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1772432/reseau-transport-en-commun-rem