L'idée de la piétonisation a fait son chemin à Montréal

[Malek]

J'ai pas de fétiche automobile, c'est vous qui avez un fétiche anti-automobile insensé et complètement déraisonable.

[Cataclaw]

Voici ma vision pour la rue Sainte-Catherine. Personnellement je ne la piétoniserait par à 100%, mais presque. Je garderais une voie automobile + du stationnement en diagonale. La voie serait exclusivement pour les autobus et le transit locale pour les commerces. (Je ne l'ai pas montré dans le dessin, mais imaginez qu'au bout de la rue, avant une intersection, les stationnements disparaissent pour libérer une voie de plus pour les arrêts d'autobus, véhicules d'urgence, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

J'ai pas de fétiche automobile, c'est vous qui avez un fétiche anti-automobile insensé et complètement déraisonable.

 

lol

 

That's our Malek

[Malek]

Ste-Catherine à mangé plusieurs coups durs dernièrements avec les hausses consecutives du prix de stationnement et le prolongement des heures payantes. Sans compter une économie moribonde qui a créé dernièrement encore plus de locaux vacants... tout ce qui reste maintenant c'est de chasser complètement les clients automobilistes et voilà vous pourrez la transformer en une rue résidentielle ben tranquille comme en banlieue.

[Cataclaw]

Ste-Catherine à mangé plusieurs coups durs dernièrements avec les hausses consecutives du prix de stationnement et le prolongement des heures payantes. Sans compter une économie moribonde qui a créé dernièrement encore plus de locaux vacants... tout ce qui reste maintenant c'est de chasser complètement les clients automobilistes et voilà vous pourrez la transformer en une rue résidentielle ben tranquille comme en banlieue.

 

Then explain how Prince-Arthur manages to be successful and busy?

 

Pedestrian malls work.

Why would Sainte-Catherine be any different?

 

 

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[Malek]

Prince arthur n'est pas une rue majeure, c'est comme fermer crescent entre sherbrooke et ste-catherine, très mineure...

 

Par contre, l'hivers Prince Arthur est une rue morte, même l'été passé son heure de pointe (disons 18h à 24h) c'est assez mort, les restos sont vides (et il n'y a que ça)

 

(par contre l'effet sur le traffic est énorme, st-laurent est tout le temps jamé entre sherbrooke et Pins puisque tout le traffic se déverse là sans pouvoir y échapper)

[Habsfan]

Prince arthur n'est pas une rue majeure, c'est comme fermer crescent entre sherbrooke et ste-catherine, très mineure...

 

Exactement! Fermer Crescent aux automobiles serait très facile et fort probablement une bonne chose! Car ce n'est pas une rue très importante...un peu comme Prince-Arthur.

 

Fermer Ste-Catherine à la circulation automobile, et je vous garantie que les commerces vont se mettre à fermer un après l'autre.

[Cataclaw]

Forgive me for replying in english but i'm in a hurry and i don't have the patience right now to do alt-223 to create an "é" every time there's an accent. Sigh... i need to buy a french keyboard!!

 

Ok. Here's the assumption you guys are making. Let's follow your logic:

If cars are removed from Sainte-Catherine street, there will be a reduction in consumers and pedestrians, therefore people go to Sainte-Catherine street partly because you can drive your car there.

 

But how many people walking on Sainte-Catherine, shopping and browsing, got there by car and parked on the street? In fairness, a bunch, to be sure. Just look at all those parallel-parked cars on the sides. But when you consider the volume of people on that street and the number of cars, the math doesn't lie. Purely and simply, most people on Sainte-Catherine street got there by parking somewhere else and walking to the street, taking the metro, taking the bus, taking a bike, taking a bixi, or simply walking. In fact just by eyeballing it, i'd wager that over 85% of people walking on Sainte-Catherine street doing a little shopping or sight seeing, didn't drive on the street or park on it. Furthermore, a large portion of cars parked on Sainte-Catherine probably don't have business on that street to begin with, maybe they needed to go to René-Lévesque but found parking on Ste-Cath first. That probably bumps up our percentage to 90%+.

 

Now.. if the street is transformed into a pedestrian mall for some of its length, it's important to consider the "build it and they will come" phenomenon. I would compare a Ste-Cath mall to the High Line park in New York City. A long, linear park that is bustling with people at all hours of the day. If Sainte-Catherine is beautified, with fountains, benches, trees, plants, monuments, sculptures, lighting displays and what not, it'll become an extremely interesting area and end up attracting a lot of people. The 10% lost will be made up quickly and a surplus of visitors almost guaranteed.

 

Could you imagine Ste-Catherine resembling the Pearl street mall in Boulder, CO? And guess what, Pearl street is like the main street of Boulder (their Sainte-Catherine). It worked there.. why not here?

 

Finally, we don't need to make the mall on the entire length of Sainte-Catherine. Ideally i'd go for Guy--Saint-Laurent, but i'd settle for a quarter of that to start with.

 

The idea that removing cars somehow removes people is simply false.

 

I know Malek will storm in here "blah blah cars blah blah blah cars cars blah blah" but it's just not true. Times Square turned itself into a pedestrian mall on half its side, removing all traffic on 7th avenue. The result has been extraordinary. Times Square has seen an increase in activity and people have been nearly unanimous in giving praise for the project.

 

We tried it in the village and it worked. It works everywhere else in the world. Why would Montreal be different?

 

Sainte-Catherine is the heart of Montreal, it's a destination, not a transit corridor. Through traffic has René-Lévesque, or better yet, the Ville-Marie Expressway. People don't drive around to their destination on Sainte-Catherine and then see "oh look, the iStore, i didn't know that was here, i'll just stop and buy an iPhone."

 

 

I've been to bars, clubs, restaurants, coffee shops, strip clubs, stores and banks on Sainte-Catherine. I've spent hundreds if not thousands of hours there. I've spent more money on that street than any other. (Okay, maybe tied with Saint-Laurent)

 

And I've never once parked on the street itself.

 

I've studied this stuff in University for years now, and i apologize if this comes off as a tad bit arrogant, but trust me on this one guys: pedestrian malls work. I know this. Some visual proof:

 

 

 

 

 

[Malek]

have you been to times square cataclaw?? I have been, its a big disapointment. Check my review in the thread dedicated to it. Yes people can walk on the street, and so what? They were able to do so on the very large sidewalks. its boring as hell, and a big annoyance to people that actually live and work in New York... and its not even completely closed to cars, like you fail to mention, it's just closed partly, and open the rest of the time.

 

And by the way, you are serious comparing times square and ste-catherine?? you're joking right? Times Square is the center of the universe, Ste-Catherine is just a busy commercial street.

 

You may not have been parking on Ste-Catherine, but I have parked on that street countless and countless times, yes you can find parking, even more often now with the insane 3$/h parking fee... if you think you spent alot of time on that street, I have been doing so since I was 13 and I'm now 30, imagine the things I witnessed there. And now that I have a kid, it's even more intresting to come directly and find a parkin on the street.

 

Have you ever seen ste-catherine in the village when it's raining or cold? Or that disastrous street closure for st-laurent in august, wow things were dead all right because it was cold/raining. and you couldn't park anywhere and get close enough to your venue. But you must know that st-laurent is never usualy dead even when its raining... but close that street and voilà buisness is killed.

 

And yeah, you know my background and you know that I'm out there every friday and saturday night, sometimes even sundays... so I have a pretty good idea of what is a dead or alive street.

[Cataclaw]

have you been to times square cataclaw?? I have been, its a big disapointment.

 

Yes, last month. It was great.

 

Check my review in the thread dedicated to it. Yes people can walk on the street, and so what? They were able to do so on the very large sidewalks. its boring as hell, and a big annoyance to people that actually live and work in New York... and its not even completely closed to cars, like you fail to mention, it's just closed partly, and open the rest of the time.

 

You're saying Times Square is boring as hell? Well then i guess we just disagree on that. I find Times Square is rather cool and exciting. Plus now with the new seating and tables they have, it's like a giant outdoor terrasse.

 

And by the way, you are serious comparing times square and ste-catherine?? you're joking right? Times Square is the center of the universe, Ste-Catherine is just a busy commercial street.

 

Sainte-Catherine is at the center of our Montreal universe, so why not?

 

You may not have been parking on Ste-Catherine, but I have parked on that street countless and countless times, yes you can find parking, even more often now with the insane 3$/h parking fee...

 

So what? What does that have to do with anything? I have to wonder, did you read my arguments at all? You're saying completely unrelated things and trying to drive them home like they're some kind of argument. I never said i didn't park on Sainte-Catherine because i couldn't, i never parked on Sainte-Catherine because i never needed to. And even if parking would be available, it wouldn't be necessary - in the slightest.

 

if you think you spent alot of time on that street, I have been doing so since I was 13 and I'm now 30, imagine the things I witnessed there. And now that I have a kid, it's even more intresting to come directly and find a parkin on the street.

 

You're missing the point completely. This isn't a contest about who has spent more time on Sainte-Catherine street. The point was, in all the time i've spent there, i've never had to actually park there. There's simply no need!

 

Have you ever seen ste-catherine in the village when it's raining or cold? Or that disastrous street closure for st-laurent in august, wow things were dead all right because it was cold/raining. and you couldn't park anywhere and get close enough to your venue. But you must know that st-laurent is never usualy dead even when its raining... but close that street and voilà buisness is killed.

 

Any street becomes dead or at least reduced in activity when it rains. Even Saint-Laurent. As for construction... Saint-Laurent business dropped during construction not because cars couldn't circulate - it's because there was a mountain of obstacles and equipment, noise and general unpleasantness in the way. The fact the road itself was inaccessible is only secondary. It's like saying your house is totally engulfed in flames but worrying that you left the thermostat on and it'll get too hot in the house as a result.

 

And yeah, you know my background and you know that I'm out there every friday and saturday night, sometimes even sundays... so I have a pretty good idea of what is a dead or alive street.

 

And so do I.. but what does that have to do with anything?

 

Anyway, i don't know what to say. You haven't actually responded to any of my arguments. You've sidestepped them all and provided no actual retorts to the core issues i've raised.

[Habsfan]

The thing you seem to forget Cat is that Ste-Catherine is a major west - east street. Remove it and René-Lévesque and Sherbrooke will be stuck in never ending traffic jams.

 

Remove cars from ste-Catherine, and it might be fine and dandy for the stores during the 5 months of nice weather we get in this city, but ask the store owners if they would like the street ot be closed off to cars in december, January, February, March and April. It will surely kill off all the shops!

 

By the way, the pictures you showed us seem to be from China or Japan, in which case the populations of the cities in those countries is soooo much bigger than our city, i'm not sure they can actually be used as comparables!?