ouest-de-lîle REM - Antenne Ouest

[DJJB]

  

 

18 hours ago, Pylône said:

Faire traverser le REM viendrait encore favoriser l'étalement urbain. Densifions l'île de Montréal pendant les prochaines décennies.

Tant que le CMM impose aux villes-banlieux de se densifier, on ne peut pas arrêter l'étalement urbain.

 

18 hours ago, Pylône said:

Pourquoi ? S'ils ont déjà une gare ?

Le secret pour la réussite du transport en commun est d'offrir des options. Les trains d'exo sont lents, doivent partager les rails avec (ahum: céder aux) trains de fret et en cas d'interruption / entretien, il n'y a pas vraiment d'alternatifs agréables autre que la voiture.

 

12 hours ago, SameGuy said:

Why are we still talking about sending metros across lightyears of farmers' fields, but not to Lachine, Côte-St-Luc, Vieux-Rosemont, or Montréal-Nord? 🤦🏻‍♂️

Yes, the Montreal boroughs also need better/more public transportation options. However, that doesn't mean that the suburbs shouldn't be neglected until every terrain has been claimed by real-estate developers and there is no more room for adding transit. This error has been made too many times in the past and right now there is an opportunity to get it right for Vaudrueil. In a similar fashion it's a shame that the extension to Chambly/St-Jean has been rejected. Anyone who has ever taken the A10 between Brossard and the A35 knows that this was a no-brainer.

 

[DJJB]

3 hours ago, SameGuy said:

[..]
If we consider that more than half of it is at-grade on a preexisting alignment – essentially track replacement and electrification –[..]

Half? I don't think so.
Yes, the tracks were already in the Mont-Royal tunnel, but the tunnel has gotten a major revamp.
The TMR part up until Du Ruisseau would fit your description and a few patches around the A13 overpass, but the rest of the network was severely upgraded to get rid of all the at-grade crossings.

All together, the "essentially track replacement and electrification" probably only holds true for 20% of the entire network at best.

[SameGuy]

Ok, let's make it simpler: if the average cost per km for REM(-A) ends up being $120M, do you think the cost for the 39 km segment from Mile 0.0 to Mile 24.3 of the CNoR Two Mountains sub is more than $120M/km, or less than $120M/km?

[DJJB]

Not sure what part you're referring to. All of the REM project is REM-A.

SNoR 2M sub (Gare Centrale - 2M) is actually 29.9km (according to Wikipedia.)

But, sure: I'll bite. Considering that outside of this subdivision is entirely created from scratch and mostly elevated or underground (except for a part in the centre of A10 on the south sure) and around TMR there is a fair bit of what you described as only redoing rails and electrifying: from the tunnel mouth to Deux Montagnes should be slightly cheaper than average. I say slightly, because there are still a lot of segments that were heavily changed to eliminate the at-grade crossings and single-track bridges to be replaced with dual-track bridges.

The revamping of the MR Tunnel is obviously a lot more expensive per km.

In total, I think the MR Tunnel causes the entire spur to be more expensive per km than the West-Island branch. But at that point it's just apples & oranges.

But what are you getting at? Not extending the line further, based on a wild $/km number that includes the MR Tunnel renovation? For any of the potential extensions that I've mentioned, I'm very sure that the average cost will be much lower. For a more realistic number, there should be a $/km number to be found for the south shore portion (excluding the Champlain bridge.)

[SameGuy]

My point is that it makes ZERO sense to spend billions to send a metro 12+ km over farmlands and wooded areas (and a lake) to a small exurb to potentially serve 3000 riders a day, when there is a suburban train line ALREADY THERE.

[montrealgoalie]

4 hours ago, SameGuy said:

My point is that it makes ZERO sense to spend billions to send a metro 12+ km over farmlands and wooded areas (and a lake) to a small exurb to potentially serve 3000 riders a day, when there is a suburban train line ALREADY THERE.

How many times are we going to have this argument..

The bridge is starting construction NOW, so the time to include REM tracks to the plan is.. NOW.  Actually its probably already too late at this point.

This one is an easy win in the 'forward thinking' column. You know that thing we always say we have trouble doing in Quebec.

No problem we'll wait till Vaudreuil triples in size until we start thinking hey, maybe a REM would be a good idea. Wonder if we need a new bridge yet?

A station off the island with incentive parking could serve Hudson, St Lazare, Rigaud hell even people visiting from Ottawa...we need less cars on the island.  

I will repeat.. the bridge will start construction now. There is NOTHING going on for Lachine. Metro extensions? LOL we can't even get a 1km extension to Bois Franc. Montreal Nord got screwed by Plante and Montreal-Est.

We don't need to play this "but what about" game because that's how we end up with nothing at all. When there are opportunities that arise then we just "might as well" freaking do it.

Just like we should have "might as well" continued digging to Bois Franc when they were building the garage on Marcel Laurin. But nooooooooooo why the hell would we do that? That would make way too much sense to try and save just a bit of money by being more efficient.

[SameGuy]

THERE IS ALREADY A TRAIN THERE. Just because we are building a bridge doesn't mean you should throw $2 billion or $3 billion into a light metro over 12 km of farms and forests and water. Where are the studies that say a station there could ever possibly justify spending $3 billion? You can't just do it because you think it would be glorious! It's idiotic in the extreme, just like putting $1 billion or $2 billion into that dilapidated stadium in the East End without a tenant. If you can tell me that 100,000 people a day will take this metro from Vaudreuil, then it might be worth $3 billion. But if studies show that ridership would only double compared to exo Vaudreuil Station – even though it would cannibalize from the exo11 line – on what planet can we justify spending $3 billion? 

[montrealgoalie]

About 4 KM of that 12.4 KM is Vaudreuil itself.

The bridge itself comprises what.. another 2.5 - 3KM?

Where is your study justifying your 3 billion$ cost? Where are you even pulling this number from? 

Are we completely throwing away the idea of any kind of TODs here too, especially in a growing area like Vaudreuil?

Maybe cannibalizing users from exo lines isin't the worst idea, and could be the catalyst into turning EXO into something better. 

Again this is all dependent on the construction of the new bridge, and the possibility of including a bridge deck for rail, which the REM could then leverage.

[montrealgoalie]

One of the articles had mentioned that they still have a right of way for a future rail bridge seperated from the actual bridge, because they didn't want to include rail on the new bridge structure due to vibrations and all. 

[SameGuy]

10 hours ago, montrealgoalie said:

About 4 KM of that 12.4 KM is Vaudreuil itself.

Irrelevant. The station is 80 m long.

You're still sending a light metro 12 km, minimum, over farmland and forests and water to get to Vaudreuil.

Please show me how many riders per day you think this would add. Whether it's $1 billion or $2 billion or $3 billion, that's not important. Tell me how you can justify spending more money than we are willing to pay our nurses and teachers and doctors and civil servants, for another vanity project, just to hope to entice a few drivers off the roads into Montreal.

There is already a very very useful railway line from the centre of Vaudreuil to downtown. Why must we send a Metro out there instead of improving the railway line? Extending the metro 12 km over fields and farms and woods and water will do absolutely zero to improve service to the rest of Montreal; spending money to improve the exo11 line would be beneficial to a minimum of 500,000 potential riders, not the 1500 who might want to get in and out of the city once in a while from Vaudreuil. What is this mania that we must absolutely send metros out into far off exurbs? Villages that would be adequately served by rapid bus lines or even by improving existing suburban train lines?