Élargissement de l'autoroute 10

[Cataclaw]

The A-15 is part of the Transcanada Highway, so the justification for an improved roadway is there. However the A-10 has no such importance. Even in the context of the Transcanada, i feel widening the A-15 to 3 lanes was a mistake, and widening the A-10 to 3 lanes until St-Jean would be a mistake as well.

 

Sprawl is bad enough as it is.......

 

Give A-10 the 3 lanes it needs between Milan and A-30 and leave it at that!

Modifié 3 août 2010 par Cataclaw

[WestAust]

The A-15 is part of the Transcanada Highway, so the justification for an improved roadway is there. However the A-10 has no such importance.

 

Highway 10 is part of the connection with all of New England either via the 35 or the 55. This alone should have made it a bigger priority than the 15 which was made solely for commuters towards the suburbs, whereas this on is part of a major trade corridor. Combined with the completion of highway 25 between iberville and the border, and highway 30 bypass, we need to make sure that all the roads can handle efficiently the traffic.

[Cataclaw]

Yeah, the connection with Vermont Most Americans enter Quebec through A-15.

 

Like i said, widening the 15 was a mistake and widening the 10 would be a mistake as well. The hit to sprawl would be enormous. Widen A-10 until A-30 and leave it at that for now.

 

If A-35's completion spurs a massive influx of Bostonian tourists, perhaps we could widen the 10 until the 35, but one step at a time.

 

When playing the highway game and the potential sprawl ramifications, it's important to proceed carefully.

[Cyrus]

The 15 needed widening, the traffic on 15 is ridiculous. Even at 1 AM at Sainte-Adolphe you'd think you were downtown...

 

The 15 wasn't built for suburbs it was intended for vacation purposes, which is part of the reason for the heavy traffic (that and it is the only real road going north). It is officially part of the TCH but nobody really takes the northern route...

 

What about people in Chambly that only are commuting to Brossard?

[Cataclaw]

The 15 needed widening, the traffic on 15 is ridiculous.

 

Heh

 

This is the argument you keep making in all the threads about highways, and i keep making the same counter.

 

"Too much traffic" cannot be justification to continuously expand highway service.

 

If you do, this is what happens:

 

1. You increase capacity, you add lanes

2. Traffic initially decreases

3. Now that the highway is smooth again, more people start using the highway instead of alternate methods of transportation (such as commuter train, metro and other forms of transit)

4. The smooth service also allows people to live farther away from the city and still commute to it in a reasonable amount of time --> This leads to sprawl.

5. As the number of cars using the roadway increases because of points 3 and 4, the road once again becomes congested.

6. The highway is once again congested, except that now, if an accident occurs blocking off all but 1 lane, there are now 2x more vehicles trying to squeeze through, making the overall congestion even greater.

 

At this point, you can either:

A) Go back to step 1 and enjoy the endless cycle, or,

B) Provide alternatives : transit

 

Adding lanes is generally not the answer. This has been proven a million times over all around the world. It's hard to accept this fact because it is counterintuitive in nature, but it's how it is.

Modifié 3 août 2010 par Cataclaw

[Cyrus]

So go for option A It doesn't seem evident that "B" even works, the traffic stays horrible. I mean, am I going to start using the transit? Not likely

 

Things like transit are not relevant in the context of far-flung areas, it isn't far enough to take a plane (public transit done right ) or close enough for a bus...

 

Especially when considering going to one's cottage, the density of the area is so low that it isn't possible to make a public transit solution that is even remotely efficient, even in terms of energy it would be more than just driving... in the South Shore context you can try things like Park and Ride facilities but they are so successful people can't find a place to park!

[gelu88]

the concept of Induced Demand should really be required reading for anyone talking about transit... It really is at the heart of everything.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

 

Also:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis-Mogridge_Position

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess%27_paradox

Modifié 3 août 2010 par gelu88

[Cataclaw]

So go for option A It doesn't seem evident that "B" even works, the traffic stays horrible. I mean, am I going to start using the transit? Not likely

 

You're not getting it...

 

In urban areas, there will always be a propensity for increased car usage.

 

If you go for option A, you will still experience congestion.

 

The more you expand capacity, the more sprawl is encouraged and the faster the rate of new cars hitting the highway increases. You can't avoid congestion, it'll always be there.

 

Car usage is like the volume of air in a container. The air will expand to fill the container. If the volume of the container increases, the air will expand to fill it.

 

A) is NOT the answer.

B) is the solution. Improve transit to provide alternatives. Yes, the roads will always remain congested to a certain extent, but that's inevitable.

 

I've studied this phenomenon at great length both in University and on my own time. Please, trust me on this one... endlessly adding capacity will not solve the problem!

 

EDIT: gelu88 has just posted some excellent links. I highly recommend you read those!

[Cyrus]

Promoting transit use through inadequate roads runs contrary to the values of democratic society. Why not encourage transit by improving its level of service instead? (then again, looking at the metro car fiasco maybe that isn't so easy )

[Cataclaw]

Promoting transit use through inadequate roads runs contrary to the values of democratic society. Why not encourage transit by improving its level of service instead? (then again, looking at the metro car fiasco maybe that isn't so easy )

 

What exactly does this have to do with political systems?

 

You're thinking in black and white terms.

 

We don't promote transit through highway congestion, In effect, congestion discourages the use of highways. This in turn places increased demand for alternatives.

 

Alternatives can/should/must then be supplied in order to meet that demand.

 

Simultaneously, transit must also be encouraged by providing improved service.

 

 

Going back to highways and what i posted along with gesu88's links:

 

You have to understand that you can't just add capacity. I understand you like roads, cars and highways. Heck, i do too. I love driving to Ottawa, Quebec City, etc. My girlfriend and I love nothing more than a pleasant drive out to the countryside. However, just like chocolate, too much of anything is never good. Chocolate is good, but it'll make you sick. Eating more chocolate will make you forget about your stomach ache, but before you know it your stomach ache will just be worse.

 

You can't just keep throwing more lanes at the problem.

 

Everything in moderation - including highways.

Modifié 3 août 2010 par Cataclaw