VIA Rail - Discussion générale ​

[SameGuy]

22 minutes ago, Enalung said:

One of the things that keeps coming up in this discussion is the sub optimal situation in Québec City as well as how to get a train from Montreal to Québec City. Personally, if I had 5-6 billions to spend on something, I certainly wouldn't spend it on a project like HFR. I've stated it before, I do not beleive that the HFR can properly compete with the airplane, let alone the car, and that's coming from somebody who does not own a car and could certainly use a more practical means of getting from here to there. I would much rather take that money and spend it on another public transit project. I think that there are far more benefits to be had, especially if we can start to address some of the issues that make a city to city train less then optimal such as actually building a proper transit link to Gare du Palais. There's plenty of projects all over the place just waiting for a few billions. I'm also rather unhappy with the alignment chosen and definitely think that they need to go back to the drawing board. It's a half backed project as far as I care.

Ok yes I remember that we share a very similar view of HFR.

[FrodoMTL]

15 hours ago, Enalung said:

The problem that I have with that statement is that a large portion of rail operators world wide run blended services with through running tracks at stations in between major cities. Quite often, the track on which the HSR runs is also the track on which the slower more local trains run. Hence, by putting the track so far away from the lakeshore, all of those cities are being denied the opportunity of being provided with better local service. I am strongly against the route chosen by VIA for that reason.

The Lakeshore route is not being discontinued just because there is HFR. It will still maintain present service levels to service all the local towns. That won't change.

Further, the reason why Lakeshore route isn't chosen is because of decades of disputes with the infrastructure owner of the lakeshore route - CN. It's not because VIA doesn't want to invest in the lakeshore route - it's because it's a vital infrastructure that CN is not willing to let go control of. Any further investment into the lakeshore route will entrench VIA even more at the mercy of freight track owner CN.

Hence the whole point of HFR - to build and OWN track that is 100% dedicated to passenger rail between QC and TO. 

Modifié 28 avril 2021 par FrodoMTL

[FrodoMTL]

16 hours ago, SameGuy said:

I thought the whole argument in favour of spending $5-10-15 billion on improving trains is the idea that they are downtown-to-downtown quicker than by air? Funnelling VIA pax to REM for a further 25+ trip to downtown and making people from the rest of the island schlep out to Dorval just to get to Québec City simply isn't worth it for the maybe 50 people a day who need to get between Ontario and Québec City (skipping Montreal).

Define quicker than air.

Air is easily 4-5-6 hrs between YUL and YYZ on any given day, because you need to factor in traffic to airport, security, checkin, waiting in lines for everything, boarding, airplane taxiing, waiting to take off, waiting to taxi to gate, deboarding, and driving from airport to home/office. And that doesn't even factor in the frequent delays we see in the YUL to YTZ/YYZ route, not to mention the physical and mental stress the whole process causes for air travelers. I flew over 50 segments between YUL-YTZ/YYZ in 2019 pre-covid for work. Even a 4 hour hour train ride between Toronto and Montreal already puts it on competitive playing field to air. 

[Decel]

il y a 17 minutes, FrodoMTL a dit :

Define quicker than air.

Air is easily 4-5-6 hrs between YUL and YYZ on any given day, because you need to factor in traffic to airport, security, checkin, waiting in lines for everything, boarding, airplane taxiing, waiting to take off, waiting to taxi to gate, deboarding, and driving from airport to home/office. And that doesn't even factor in the frequent delays we see in the YUL to YTZ/YYZ route, not to mention the physical and mental stress the whole process causes for air travelers. I flew over 50 segments between YUL-YTZ/YYZ in 2019 pre-covid for work. Even a 4 hour hour train ride between Toronto and Montreal already puts it on competitive playing field to air. 

And THIS is the low-hanging fruit. If we can have a HSR/HFR train for MTL-To. with travel time of say 2.5h, people will jump on that since it will be competitive to planes/bus and possibly car.

[SameGuy]

1 hour ago, FrodoMTL said:

Define quicker than air.

Air is easily 4-5-6 hrs between YUL and YYZ on any given day, because you need to factor in traffic to airport, security, checkin, waiting in lines for everything, boarding, airplane taxiing, waiting to take off, waiting to taxi to gate, deboarding, and driving from airport to home/office. And that doesn't even factor in the frequent delays we see in the YUL to YTZ/YYZ route, not to mention the physical and mental stress the whole process causes for air travelers. I flew over 50 segments between YUL-YTZ/YYZ in 2019 pre-covid for work. Even a 4 hour hour train ride between Toronto and Montreal already puts it on competitive playing field to air. 

Not disagreeing with you at all; my point was in reference to the idea above my post, suggesting the through-trains between Ontario and Quebec City could stop outside downtown Montreal — 20 km away in Dorval — before continuing north through the CSL rail yards, bypassing downtown altogether.

1 hour ago, Decel said:

And THIS is the low-hanging fruit. If we can have a HSR/HFR train for MTL-To. with travel time of say 2.5h, people will jump on that since it will be competitive to planes/bus and possibly car.

Also agree. I’ve mused elsewhere that continuing HSR west of Toronto and east of Montreal is ridiculous when you actually do the math. Downtown Montreal to downtown Toronto? IMO that’s $25-50 billion properly spent.

[FrodoMTL]

18 hours ago, Decel said:

And THIS is the low-hanging fruit. If we can have a HSR/HFR train for MTL-To. with travel time of say 2.5h, people will jump on that since it will be competitive to planes/bus and possibly car.

Once again, I feel like a broken record when saying this, but I and most other supporters of HFR are also completely supportive of HFR/TGV! The question in this country is not the why or what - we all know what and why we need to build better passenger rail and better public transit. The question for the past 5 decades - ever since nationalization of VIA Rail - has always been "how" - how do we feasibly get there with the limited resources and political constraints that we live under. Especially given the unprecedented federal and provincial deficit and debt levels caused by the pandemic, how politically feasible is it to spend another $20-30 billion (will likely be much higher) between Toronto and Montreal when every level of government is facing a fiscal crunch. I think any respectable politician who proposes something as big and flashy as a $30 billion-price tagged HSR would face certain political suicide and risk getting crucified by the media as "tone deaf" in the midst of a public health crisis. That's why in the April federal budget, even the HFR was tucked under a discreet spending line with the federal government only pitching $400 million and the rest being managed behind the scenes by the Canada Infrastructure Bank and the JPO - they don't want to draw attention to any big ticket "flashy" infrastructure spends during this time and that's the only way to get it passed in parliament. That's the reality of the system that we must all work within.

17 hours ago, SameGuy said:

Not disagreeing with you at all; my point was in reference to the idea above my post, suggesting the through-trains between Ontario and Quebec City could stop outside downtown Montreal — 20 km away in Dorval — before continuing north through the CSL rail yards, bypassing downtown altogether.

I agree. HFR/HSR doesn't have to be a Toronto-Quebec City route. It could be broken into different segments, of which OTT-TO and OTT-MTL are the most likely and lowest hanging fruits to hit (I can't believe there are still Air Canada flights between Ottawa and Montreal airports...).

Modifié 29 avril 2021 par FrodoMTL

[Enalung]

21 hours ago, FrodoMTL said:

The Lakeshore route is not being discontinued just because there is HFR. It will still maintain present service levels to service all the local towns. That won't change.

Further, the reason why Lakeshore route isn't chosen is because of decades of disputes with the infrastructure owner of the lakeshore route - CN. It's not because VIA doesn't want to invest in the lakeshore route - it's because it's a vital infrastructure that CN is not willing to let go control of. Any further investment into the lakeshore route will entrench VIA even more at the mercy of freight track owner CN.

Hence the whole point of HFR - to build and OWN track that is 100% dedicated to passenger rail between QC and TO. 

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on that point. Even if it's not being discontinued, and even if CN does own the track, there's nothing stopping VIA from building it's own track right besides. A large part of that right of way is large enough to do so. I would also ask, has VIA explored the possibility of making deals with CN such as building diversions around cities for CN where needed so that they can own the track going through the city and the local train station? That question is particularly pertinent on the west side of Toronto as a single piece of track of about 20km along highway 407 is all that is needed to enable the rerouting of all merchandise track along a more northern route to liberate a new route for public transit and eventual HSR.

I understand that those negotiations aren't easy, but from an outsider's point of view, it really feels like the route chosen by VIA is the proverbial path of least resistance and calling it good enough. If there's one thing that I've learned in life, it's that the most interesting and amazing things aren't the easy things. As you pointed out in your last post, the track does not need to be entirely built in one single go. A series of small incremental changes could make a huge difference. Montreal Ottawa is a third of the distance. That on it's own would already be a rather good start.

There's definitely a failure of government here to set smaller more realisable objectives and to take a lead to resolve some of the road blocks.

[FrodoMTL]

1 hour ago, Enalung said:

I guess we have a fundamental disagreement on that point. Even if it's not being discontinued, and even if CN does own the track, there's nothing stopping VIA from building it's own track right besides. A large part of that right of way is large enough to do so. I would also ask, has VIA explored the possibility of making deals with CN such as building diversions around cities for CN where needed so that they can own the track going through the city and the local train station? That question is particularly pertinent on the west side of Toronto as a single piece of track of about 20km along highway 407 is all that is needed to enable the rerouting of all merchandise track along a more northern route to liberate a new route for public transit and eventual HSR.

I understand that those negotiations aren't easy, but from an outsider's point of view, it really feels like the route chosen by VIA is the proverbial path of least resistance and calling it good enough. If there's one thing that I've learned in life, it's that the most interesting and amazing things aren't the easy things. As you pointed out in your last post, the track does not need to be entirely built in one single go. A series of small incremental changes could make a huge difference. Montreal Ottawa is a third of the distance. That on it's own would already be a rather good start.

There's definitely a failure of government here to set smaller more realisable objectives and to take a lead to resolve some of the road blocks.

Most of the above have been explored by VIA Rail during multiple rounds of negotiations with CN in the past 2 decades. It isn't a simple matter of "building its own track beside CN tracks" - any HFR/HSR along the existing Lakeshore route will require extensive dedicated ROW negotiations with CN, no mixed traffic to guarantee high frequency, full grade separation along the entire route due to Lakeshore route's many local crossings, station upgrades to build high platforms and electrification along the entire route (already deal breaker for CN's freight operations), all of which have a large material impact on CN's current freight infrastructure that they are not willing to risk. CN knows they have a complete hold over VIA Rail and the federal government along the current Lakeshore route, and they'll ask for an arm and leg and maybe some more before they are willing to even talk - which puts VIA Rail at an extreme disadvantage before any negotiation even starts. Metrolinx from Toronto has learned this the hard way - they realized 10 years ago that the only way to deliver "RER-style" high frequency service and achieve electrification in the GTA is to build their own tracks and routes separate from freight operators.

As for HSR, a host of consultants were hired by successive federal and provincial governments to "study" HSR along that route, the latest being the one commissioned by Ontario Ministry of Transportation in 2018 (committed $15 million to build business case for HSR, which ended up nowhere). As a country, we have gone down the HSR/TGV rabbit hole more than enough times, each time with its own grand pronouncements from various local or federal politicians + a host of consultants, each time ending up nowhere.

 

 

Modifié 29 avril 2021 par FrodoMTL

[Enalung]

1 hour ago, FrodoMTL said:

Most of the above have been explored by VIA Rail during multiple rounds of negotiations with CN in the past 2 decades. It isn't a simple matter of "building its own track beside CN tracks" - any HFR/HSR along the existing Lakeshore route will require extensive dedicated ROW negotiations with CN, no mixed traffic to guarantee high frequency, full grade separation along the entire route due to Lakeshore route's many local crossings, station upgrades to build high platforms and electrification along the entire route (already deal breaker for CN's freight operations), all of which have a large material impact on CN's current freight infrastructure that they are not willing to risk. CN knows they have a complete hold over VIA Rail and the federal government along the current Lakeshore route, and they'll ask for an arm and leg and maybe some more before they are willing to even talk - which puts VIA Rail at an extreme disadvantage before any negotiation even starts. Metrolinx from Toronto has learned this the hard way - they realized 10 years ago that the only way to deliver "RER-style" high frequency service and achieve electrification in the GTA is to build their own tracks and routes separate from freight operators.

As for HSR, a host of consultants were hired by successive federal and provincial governments to "study" HSR along that route, the latest being the one commissioned by Ontario Ministry of Transportation in 2018 (committed $15 million to build business case for HSR, which ended up nowhere). As a country, we have gone down the HSR/TGV rabbit hole more than enough times, each time with its own grand pronouncements from various local or federal politicians + a host of consultants, each time ending up nowhere.

Which is why you start by building what you can. The section between Montreal and Ottawa does not belong to CN. After that's done, the population will have a chance to get a taste of HSR. You then use that to ratchet up the pressure on CN and CP, putting them exactly where they don't want to be, front and center of a public debate. That's how you get this done.

[FrodoMTL]

20 hours ago, Enalung said:

Which is why you start by building what you can. The section between Montreal and Ottawa does not belong to CN. After that's done, the population will have a chance to get a taste of HSR. You then use that to ratchet up the pressure on CN and CP, putting them exactly where they don't want to be, front and center of a public debate. That's how you get this done.

You make it sound so easy. Unfortunately, I highly doubt they'll start with a test track "HSR" between Montreal and Ottawa. The funding is already approved for HFR and CIB has poured in $70 million into detailed EA and planning for the past 2 years. The feds will be shooting themselves in the foot if they scrap HFR at this time and return to the drawing table. Once again, that's the present reality of the political system we must work under.

Even worse, let's assume the hypothetical situation that the MTL-OTT HSR does get built in the next few years, and it ends up losing tens of millions every year (not to mention much higher passenger fares commanded by HSR services) due to lower than forecast ridership? Once again, whoever makes these decisions will get crucified by the media for building a "white elephant" tourist train that is not affordable to the public. Think Union-Pearson Express train opened by the Ontario Liberals in 2015 - great concept, great service, but completely unaffordable and out of touch with the traveling public and later ended up costing millions in operating subsidies every year. I remember in 2015 the local Toronto media even started a "daily ridership count meter" to show case the abysmal ridership of UPX - it was a PR disaster. This later became an election issue that brought down that government.

There are so many angles with large scale infrastructure planning that one needs to consider - if you were the policy maker/decision maker, would you put your career and head on the line for that? As "armchair experts", it's easy for us to judge and comment and criticize.

Modifié 30 avril 2021 par FrodoMTL