ouest-de-lîle Station YUL-Aéroport-Montréal-Trudeau - Discussion

[FrodoMTL]

On 2021-01-31 at 10:56 AM, andre md said:

Exactly, it smacks of politics and Legault has been playing it for some time. 

At the beginning the provinvial agreed to help ADM he turned the hood and now he blows the heat on the federal. 

If I am not mistaken, ontario has made its contribution for the rail link at Pearson. 

Several key differences between REM-A and Union-Pearson Express:

- UPExpress cost a total of $500 million (the entire project, not just the station) - it's a bargain because it only required upgrades 2 existing GO transit stations and the addition of 2 new stations (Pearson and Union), along with a new aerial spur. There isn't even electrification, which should've been included from day 1. 

- The Pearson Airport station is tiny compared to the underground REM infrastructure proposed for YUL. UPX station at Pearson is essentially an elevated platform that is an extension of the old Pearson LINK Train to Terminal 3. There really isn't much new infrastructure added, and for those that have used it in the past, the UPX station integration with the actual terminal building isn't optimal for passenger experience, and clearly feels like it's a quick build rather than something that integrates seamlessly with the rest of the Pearson airport transit (you have to exit the train, go through the old LINK platform, down escalator, turn left through the parking garage, turn right onto a pedestrian bridge, and climb another escalator up to the departure terminal)

- I cannot find info on how much GTAA contributed to the UPX Pearson station, but you can bet that it's a tiny fraction of the $600 million that ADM needs to put up. 

Modifié 7 février 2021 par FrodoMTL

[SameGuy]

38 minutes ago, FrodoMTL said:

Several key differences between REM-A and Union-Pearson Express:

- UPExpress cost a total of $500 million (the entire project, not just the station) - it's a bargain because it only required upgrades 2 existing GO transit stations and the addition of 2 new stations (Pearson and Union), along with a new aerial spur. There isn't even electrification, which should've been included from day 1. 

- The Pearson Airport station is tiny compared to the underground REM infrastructure proposed for YUL. UPX station at Pearson is essentially an elevated platform that is an extension of the old Pearson LINK Train to Terminal 3. There really isn't much new infrastructure added, and for those that have used it in the past, the UPX station integration with the actual terminal building isn't optimal for passenger experience, and clearly feels like it's a quick build rather than something that integrates seamlessly with the rest of the Pearson airport transit (you have to exit the train, go through the old LINK platform, down escalator, turn left through the parking garage, turn right onto a pedestrian bridge, and climb another escalator up to the departure terminal)

- I cannot find info on how much GTAA contributed to the UPX Pearson station, but you can bet that it's a tiny fraction of the $600 million that ADM needs to put up. 

Thanks for this. I’ve been meaning to respond to the past whataboutisms referencing UPX. The funniest part about UPX is that it’s called a “premium” service! I think that’s because of the fare price more than anything. 😂 The original ADM proposal for the YUL Aéroport Express that James Cherry was promoting was going to be a similar to UPX: a spur to the A20 corridor with express shuttle service direct to Central Station for a premium fare. The proposed YUL Express wouldn’t serve the needs of any local transit users.

[Enalung]

2 hours ago, SameGuy said:

Thanks for this. I’ve been meaning to respond to the past whataboutisms referencing UPX. The funniest part about UPX is that it’s called a “premium” service! I think that’s because of the fare price more than anything. 😂 The original ADM proposal for the YUL Aéroport Express that James Cherry was promoting was going to be a similar to UPX: a spur to the A20 corridor with express shuttle service direct to Central Station for a premium fare. The proposed YUL Express wouldn’t serve the needs of any local transit users.

Yeah, the web is full of stories like this one about UPX, and mind you, this article is one of the more positives ones. The UPX shuttle was widely considered a failure when it opened.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-19/how-toronto-turned-an-airport-rail-failure-into-a-commuter-asset

[andre md]

il y a une heure, Enalung a dit :

Yeah, the web is full of stories like this one about UPX, and mind you, this article is one of the more positives ones. The UPX shuttle was widely considered a failure when it opened.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-19/how-toronto-turned-an-airport-rail-failure-into-a-commuter-asset

A dedicated transit link downtown to the airport isn't really viable in almost any cities. Charles  De Gaule in Paris is deserved by the RER B and Barajas in Madrid is desserved by the pink metro line 8.

 

 

[andre md]

Il y a 4 heures, FrodoMTL a dit :

Several key differences between REM-A and Union-Pearson Express:

- UPExpress cost a total of $500 million (the entire project, not just the station) - it's a bargain because it only required upgrades 2 existing GO transit stations and the addition of 2 new stations (Pearson and Union), along with a new aerial spur. There isn't even electrification, which should've been included from day 1. 

- The Pearson Airport station is tiny compared to the underground REM infrastructure proposed for YUL. UPX station at Pearson is essentially an elevated platform that is an extension of the old Pearson LINK Train to Terminal 3. There really isn't much new infrastructure added, and for those that have used it in the past, the UPX station integration with the actual terminal building isn't optimal for passenger experience, and clearly feels like it's a quick build rather than something that integrates seamlessly with the rest of the Pearson airport transit (you have to exit the train, go through the old LINK platform, down escalator, turn left through the parking garage, turn right onto a pedestrian bridge, and climb another escalator up to the departure terminal)

- I cannot find info on how much GTAA contributed to the UPX Pearson station, but you can bet that it's a tiny fraction of the $600 million that ADM needs to put up. 

Maybe i'm wrong but i think that the project have been financed by Metrolinx not really by the Pearson airport autority. 

[SameGuy]

1 hour ago, andre md said:

Maybe i'm wrong but i think that the project have been financed by Metrolinx not really by the Pearson airport autority. 

Yes, the provincial entity.

[FrodoMTL]

15 hours ago, SameGuy said:

Yes, the provincial entity.

Metrolinx is the owner/operator of UPX. Infrastructure Ontario is the entity that was responsible for the original tenders and deciding on the financing model. It used Ontario's famous "Alternative Financing and Procurement Model" (AFP) meant to "de-risk the project by offloading all project risks to the private sector" (which sounds great on paper but comes with lots of issues in practice). Like I said earlier, I couldn't find any publicly available info on the cost contributions from each entity (between Infra Ontario and GTAA).

https://www.infrastructureontario.ca/Request-for-Qualifications-Issued-Union-Pearson-Express/

 

 

[FrodoMTL]

21 hours ago, SameGuy said:

Thanks for this. I’ve been meaning to respond to the past whataboutisms referencing UPX. The funniest part about UPX is that it’s called a “premium” service! I think that’s because of the fare price more than anything. 😂 The original ADM proposal for the YUL Aéroport Express that James Cherry was promoting was going to be a similar to UPX: a spur to the A20 corridor with express shuttle service direct to Central Station for a premium fare. The proposed YUL Express wouldn’t serve the needs of any local transit users.

Yes, the "premium service" branding was a spectacular failure for the Ontario government. The one way ticket was $27.50 at launch (which isn't the most expensive considering that a taxi/limo ride is easily $60+ to downtown). To be fair to Ontario/Metrolinx, it was a pretty decent "premium service" - custom-designed seating, magazines in seatback pockets, good onboard amenities (free wifi, USB outlets, tray tables, onboard bathrooms). It even has its own "custom uniform" and a bar/lounge and boutique cafe at the Union Station terminal...

 

 

Since then, I think every transit agency in the country, including REM-A, has learned to NOT follow the UPX launch model. And to be fair to Metrolinx, it did correct the pricing issue (now down to about ~$10 one way), and since then, UPX has become quite a popular service not just with airport travelers but also local transit users (I know quite a few colleagues of mine who use it daily to commute from home to work just like how they would use GO or TTC), especially since it now offers RER-like service every 15 minutes (pre-covid). Also, UPX's rollingstock choice - Nippon Sharyo DMU - is highly questionable from the beginning. I don't think UPX is a grand failure, but it is a good case study for the future because:

- it just goes to show that the "premium airport link" market is really a niche market for vast majority of cities

- things like rollingstock choices can have long repercussions down the road

- even when it became a failure, there are creative ways to "rebrand" and "redeploy" the service for other transit needs, which is exactly what Metrolinx did with very good results

The very likely future of UPX is that it will be rebranded and incorporated into the general GO RER program, with electrification and new higher capacity rollingstock. 

Modifié 8 février 2021 par FrodoMTL

[andre md]

il y a 48 minutes, FrodoMTL a dit :

Metrolinx is the owner/operator of UPX. Infrastructure Ontario is the entity that was responsible for the original tenders and deciding on the financing model. It used Ontario's famous "Alternative Financing and Procurement Model" (AFP) meant to "de-risk the project by offloading all project risks to the private sector" (which sounds great on paper but comes with lots of issues in practice). Like I said earlier, I couldn't find any publicly available info on the cost contributions from each entity (between Infra Ontario and GTAA).

https://www.infrastructureontario.ca/Request-for-Qualifications-Issued-Union-Pearson-Express/

 

 

on joue avec les mots ce n'est pas vraiment une entité privé.  Ca fini par etre financé par les fonds publics. 

[FrodoMTL]

1 hour ago, andre md said:

we play with words it's not really a private entity. It ended up being financed by public funds. 

I don't think anyone ever implied that UPX was funded by private entities. AFP is simply a procure/finance/build model that governs the responsibilities between the government (the client) and private contractors. The source of funding is still public.

Anyway, now we are way off topic. Back to REM station in YUL.

 

Modifié 8 février 2021 par FrodoMTL