ville mont-royal Royalmount

[SKYMTL]

So I'm trying to put this into some context.  

Rockland Shopping Center was supposed to be a "hub" for high end fashion

It fails spectacularly regardless of the fact its within spitting distance of two of the most affluent neighborhoods in Canada

Royalmount is designed as a symbiotic blend of commercial, residential and retail

NIMBY's step in

And the end result is Rockland 2.0, but further removed from the high end clientele and we expect a different result?  

Do I have that right?  

To parallel this with Yorkdale is absolutely laughable.  The fashion retail environment and accessibility to fast fashion is completely different from Montreal.  To suggest otherwise shows a complete lack of understanding of how Montrealers shop for fashion versus affluent individuals in the rest of Canada.   

[Decel]

il y a 29 minutes, SKYMTL a dit :

So I'm trying to put this into some context.  

Rockland Shopping Center was supposed to be a "hub" for high end fashion

It fails spectacularly regardless of the fact its within spitting distance of two of the most affluent neighborhoods in Canada

Royalmount is designed as a symbiotic blend of commercial, residential and retail

NIMBY's step in

And the end result is Rockland 2.0, but further removed from the high end clientele and we expect a different result?  

Do I have that right?  

To parallel this with Yorkdale is absolutely laughable.  The fashion retail environment and accessibility to fast fashion is completely different from Montreal.  To suggest otherwise shows a complete lack of understanding of how Montrealers shop for fashion versus affluent individuals in the rest of Canada.   

Rockland is also a stone-throw's away from the second poorest neighbourhood in the country. It also suffers from being too small by contemporary mall standards. Amongst no-man's lands, Royalmount is definitely better situated than Rockland. Rockland is nowhere near a metro station.

Will it be comparable to Yorkdale? Maybe, maybe not. But Carbonleo and its partners (including LVMH) are betting on it. I do hope the place will be interesting. It may motivate development on Blue Bonnets this century.

[andre md]

11 minutes ago, Decel said:

Rockland is also a stone-throw's away from the second poorest neighbourhood in the country. It also suffers from being too small by contemporary mall standards. Amongst no-man's lands, Royalmount is definitely better situated than Rockland. Rockland is nowhere near a metro station.

Will it be comparable to Yorkdale? Maybe, maybe not. But Carbonleo and its partners (including LVMH) are betting on it. I do hope the place will be interesting. It may motivate development on Blue Bonnets this century.

For what i know,  immigrants especially asian are big consumer of luxury product.

Toronto and Vancouver having much bigger asian communuties than Montreal. 

When i look at drivers of luxury cars in Montreal like mercedes, bmw ,audi, lexus etc...  Most of the time they are not purelaine quebecois who drive those cars.  Except maybe Tesla's if we considered them luxury cars. 

[SKYMTL]

22 minutes ago, Decel said:

Rockland is also a stone-throw's away from the second poorest neighbourhood in the country. It also suffers from being too small by contemporary mall standards. Amongst no-man's lands, Royalmount is definitely better situated than Rockland. Rockland is nowhere near a metro station.

Will it be comparable to Yorkdale? Maybe, maybe not. But Carbonleo and its partners (including LVMH) are betting on it. I do hope the place will be interesting. It may motivate development on Blue Bonnets this century.

Typically the poorest and most wealthy neighborhoods are positioned right next to one another.  So that's a moot point considering Marche Central was set up as a typical power center to cater to a different set of shopping needs.  

As has already been stated, the type of clients LVMH and Carbonleo are trying to attract to this aren't folks who will be taking the metro.  Not in the least.  

I think you also misunderstand what a high end fashion mall typically looks like, especially in a world that's pivoted increasingly to online shopping.  Essentially, the "high end" shopping mall concept is dead (one of the reasons why Yorkdale has had to backstop its leasing space with the likes of Reitmans, Shoppers Drug Mart, etc.) outside some very niche spaces like Mall of the Emirates, Fashion Show Mall and a few others.  High end retailers are now positioning themselves as stand-alone destinations which is why retailers like Dior, Chanel, Louis Vuitton and others have begun shuttering their mall locations while broadening their street side presence in affluent neighborhoods.  

If Rockland's positioning could be considered a no man's land, Royalmount is doubly so due to its ridiculously bad access and even worse traffic.  The last thing someone wants is to be sitting in their Bentley in traffic just to grab a new Chanel bag. 

Nope, this location is doomed to failure without the primary functions first laid out by Carbonleo:  residential and commercial, not just retail alone.  

You also forget the immigrant aspect.  Most affluent immigrants avoid Quebec like the plague and like it or not, they're some of the primary consumers of high end luxury goods.  Sure some settle here but the market is absolutely not there for a high end fashion mall, especially now.  

 

 

[Decel]

il y a une heure, andre md a dit :

For what i know,  immigrants especially asian are big consumer of luxury product.

Toronto and Vancouver having much bigger asian communuties than Montreal. 

When i look at drivers of luxury cars in Montreal like mercedes, bmw ,audi, lexus etc...  Most of the time they are not purelaine quebecois who drive those cars.  Except maybe Tesla's if we considered them luxury cars. 

Yes, that's why they have multiple luxury centers and distinct brand shops and Montreal barely has a building (Ogilvy). Royalmount increases the offering, but not ridiculously so.

And did you notice? Ste-Cath west of Crescent is basically Chinatown 2.0 (aka K-Town). Our asian population is growing too, mostly via Concordia and McGill.

il y a une heure, SKYMTL a dit :

Typically the poorest and most wealthy neighborhoods are positioned right next to one another.  So that's a moot point considering Marche Central was set up as a typical power center to cater to a different set of shopping needs.  

I can't comment on this as I don't have enough info for/against this statement.

il y a une heure, SKYMTL a dit :

As has already been stated, the type of clients LVMH and Carbonleo are trying to attract to this aren't folks who will be taking the metro.  Not in the least.

People will take TeC if it's convenient (access, frequency, cost, speed, etc.) for them to do so, and take the car if it's convenient for them to do so.

il y a une heure, SKYMTL a dit :

I think you also misunderstand what a high end fashion mall typically looks like, especially in a world that's pivoted increasingly to online shopping.  Essentially, the "high end" shopping mall concept is dead (one of the reasons why Yorkdale has had to backstop its leasing space with the likes of Reitmans, Shoppers Drug Mart, etc.) outside some very niche spaces like Mall of the Emirates, Fashion Show Mall and a few others.  High end retailers are now positioning themselves as stand-alone destinations which is why retailers like Dior, Chanel, Louis Vuitton and others have begun shuttering their mall locations while broadening their street side presence in affluent neighborhoods.  

Why would I misunderstand it? I am in the target audience of these luxury malls.

This is consumer luxury. We're not talking about Birkins. Also, Montreal is really under-represented in terms of luxury compared to Toronto/Vancouver. Royalmount will just improve the situation without overtaking any of the other 2 main Canadian markets, comparatively speaking, which to me is more a reversion to the mean. Montreal is developing after all.

il y a une heure, SKYMTL a dit :

If Rockland's positioning could be considered a no man's land, Royalmount is doubly so due to its ridiculously bad access and even worse traffic.  The last thing someone wants is to be sitting in their Bentley in traffic just to grab a new Chanel bag. 

I disagree, and you're over-evaluating Bentley.

il y a une heure, SKYMTL a dit :

Nope, this location is doomed to failure without the primary functions first laid out by Carbonleo:  residential and commercial, not just retail alone.  

This is the fun part of the debate. We will see (soonish!), but I am betting against that position. Also surprised how many people bash Carbonleo as a company not able to read the luxury markets when they built the 4 Seasons on De La Montagne. I would have thought they'd get a bit of luxury-street-cred from the forum out of that project.

il y a une heure, SKYMTL a dit :

You also forget the immigrant aspect.  Most affluent immigrants avoid Quebec like the plague and like it or not, they're some of the primary consumers of high end luxury goods.  Sure some settle here but the market is absolutely not there for a high end fashion mall, especially now. 

Affluent immigrants avoid Quebec over the other provinces because of high taxes, historical popular views against wealth in general (doctrine chrétienne et la mentalité -qui s'efface progressivement- d'être né pour du petit pain), and heavy French (or rather English-oppressing) influence.

Those same affluent immigrants however will send their affluent kids to McGill (perennially on the global top University list, a huge blessing for Montreal) or Concordia if they fail to enter McGill however (hint: our tuition cost less), and with them comes consumption. Those same kids will also likely take the metro to get to the hippest part of town if it's reachable.

I am not saying that we will reach Toronto/Vancouver levels of richness anytime soon (or anytime at all for that matter), but the economic prosperity does eventually overflow to Montreal.

 

Edit: Speaking of Yorkdale. Many affluent-but-not-so-rich Montrealers go to Toronto to go to Yorkdale and other mid-high-end shops/restaurants. Maybe/hopefully Royalmount will absorb a part of that share and keep the money in-town/province.

[Né entre les rapides]

I find that  the recent discussions are predicated on the assumption that Royalmount will be (or strive to be) a luxury mall catering to a very  rich clientele.  My expectations are slightly different:  there will be some high end retail stores, but the bulk of the mall would carry more affordable and "mid-high-end " * brands (but ideally avoiding low end).  The (comparatively small) high-end component would add some prestige to the place.  It is no different downtown.     

I certainly agree that the original plan combining commercial and residential functions  would have made it a superior proposition.  However I do not despair that it may come to be in the future, as the current plan does not appear to cover the whole site: some land would remain available for a substantial residentiel component.  Arguably, TMR may continue to object, but keep in mind that the provincial government  has the undisputable power to amend or modify municipal limits at will; it only needs to be convinced by a group of influential peoples, preferably coming from a broad spectrum, that the change would be beneficial overall.  As for the existing TMR residents, they might even be  pleased that the dreadful (for them) prospect of welcoming new (different?) residents into TMR would have been removed (while keeping the taxes from the commercial sector remaining in TMR). 

The Royalmount is by no means a perfect site, mostly due to poor access.  But this can be alleviated, to some extent.  What were/are the alternatives?  -- Hopefully not a wasteland in the middle of the Island.  

* as per @Decel 

[job]

8 hours ago, Né entre les rapides said:

I find that  the recent discussions are predicated on the assumption that Royalmount will be (or strive to be) a luxury mall catering to a very  rich clientele.  My expectations are slightly different:  there will be some high end retail stores, but the bulk of the mall would carry more affordable and "mid-high-end " * brands (but ideally avoiding low end).  The (comparatively small) high-end component would add some prestige to the place.  It is no different downtown.     

I certainly agree that the original plan combining commercial and residential functions  would have made it a superior proposition.  However I do not despair that it may come to be in the future, as the current plan does not appear to cover the whole site: some land would remain available for a substantial residentiel component.  Arguably, TMR may continue to object, but keep in mind that the provincial government  has the undisputable power to amend or modify municipal limits at will; it only needs to be convinced by a group of influential peoples, preferably coming from a broad spectrum, that the change would be beneficial overall.  As for the existing TMR residents, they might even be  pleased that the dreadful (for them) prospect of welcoming new (different?) residents into TMR would have been removed (while keeping the taxes from the commercial sector remaining in TMR). 

The Royalmount is by no means a perfect site, mostly due to poor access.  But this can be alleviated, to some extent.  What were/are the alternatives?  -- Hopefully not a wasteland in the middle of the Island.  

* as per @Decel 

Definitely agree ... if it is to be another offering similar to Dix30, it will probably do fine. 

My initial point was and remains that it is a highly diluted version of the original plan and thus, little more than an ordinary mega mall. Will this be worth the investment? TBD but my guess is probably not.

[job]

10 hours ago, Decel said:

 

This is the fun part of the debate. We will see (soonish!), but I am betting against that position. Also surprised how many people bash Carbonleo as a company not able to read the luxury markets when they built the 4 Seasons on De La Montagne. I would have thought they'd get a bit of luxury-street-cred from the forum out of that project.

 

Glad someone brought up 4 seasons on De La Montagne ... there is one retail space in that complex and it took years to lease to Moose Knuckles ?!?

There have also been rumours for years of turmoil with the Four Seasons brand and that the hotel has changed hands... Perhaps someone can confirm.

Lastly, the residences ... many are still for sale by promoter and there were only a dozen or so to begin with.

I am glad the project was built and exists but I would hesitate to consider it a home run :s 

[acpnc]

Puisqu'on nage toujours en pleine spéculation depuis des pages et des pages et que rien de véritablement concret ni de définitif n'a été confirmé, avec plans à l'appui depuis l'annonce de ce méga-centre en 2015. Je reste donc sur mes positions et attendrai le vrai test, soit celui de l'achalandage une fois l'ensemble du complexe ouvert. On verra ensuite la tendance réelle à moyen terme en comparaison avec la compétition ailleurs en ville et bien sûr l'effet sur la congestion du secteur.

[Né entre les rapides]

Il y a 1 heure, acpnc a dit :

Puisqu'on nage toujours en pleine spéculation depuis des pages et des pages et que rien de véritablement concret ni de définitif n'a été confirmé, avec plans à l'appui depuis l'annonce de ce méga-centre en 2015. Je reste donc sur mes positions et attendrai le vrai test, soit celui de l'achalandage une fois l'ensemble du complexe ouvert. On verra ensuite la tendance réelle à moyen terme en comparaison avec la compétition ailleurs en ville et bien sûr l'effet sur la congestion du secteur.

Précisons.  Depuis l'annonce du projet en 2015, on sait que plusieurs versions d'un plan global ont été présentées; la plupart d'entre elles supposaient des changements de zonage et de nouvelles infrastructures (routes et passerelle reliant le centre à une station de métro).  Ces conditions n'ont pas été (encore) remplies, et leur réalisation demeure incertaine.

Néanmoins, quelque chose est effectivement  en train de se concrétiser  -- des immeubles à vocation commerciale sur une partie du site.  Ce n'est pas insignifiant, et leurs effets se feront sûrement sentir  -- probablement de manières différentes de ce qu'il en eut été si le projet global avait été mis en chantier intégralement.