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Royalmount


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Il y a 16 heures, ToxiK a dit :

And some people do not want to pay for public transit they won't use.  We all live in the same society and we can't always take the money of one side of the taxpayers to put on the other side and never listen to the wishes on the side who is paying.

Some choices are more beneficial to society than others. Not wanting to take public transit is a choice everybody is free to make. But the consequences of it are more hurtful at large than the choice not to take a personal car.

So, logically, everybody paying for public transports, even those who don't you use it, is a better thing than everybody paying for infrastrucures that will benefit only those who want them, plus create negative outcomes for society as a whole.

It's far from being a personal choice-only issue, and those personal choices are certainly not equal in terms of pros and cons for collective development.

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5 hours ago, georgeplamondon10 said:

Very well said. Finally somebody who understands what the downtown needs

Absolutely! Having a background in econ/business helps me with this, plus other cities have done it and it works. The only thing that sucks is how when I explain this, people look at me like I'm speaking a foreign language or disagree with me, yet complain that downtown is "dying". Although it is not dying, we still need to make it the most attractive place in the city and the proposal I made is the way to go. 

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1 hour ago, Djentmaster001 said:

Absolutely! Having a background in econ/business helps me with this, plus other cities have done it and it works. The only thing that sucks is how when I explain this, people look at me like I'm speaking a foreign language or disagree with me, yet complain that downtown is "dying". Although it is not dying, we still need to make it the most attractive place in the city and the proposal I made is the way to go. 

100% agree. Most people are confused why I try to explain to them that we have to be pro-business because businesses are actually making us work and are mostly responsible for any investments.

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Il y a 2 heures, MtlMan a dit :

Some choices are more beneficial to society than others. Not wanting to take public transit is a choice everybody is free to make. But the consequences of it are more hurtful at large than the choice not to take a personal car.

So, logically, everybody paying for public transports, even those who don't you use it, is a better thing than everybody paying for infrastrucures that will benefit only those who want them, plus create negative outcomes for society as a whole.

It's far from being a personal choice-only issue, and those personal choices are certainly not equal in terms of pros and cons for collective development.

I don't have a car, I use public transport, but I can understand why people with cars might get frustrated.  We all pay taxes (almost...) and we should all get something we want.  We can't always take, take, take from the same people and then tell them we don't want them to use their car because we don't like it.  We can ask them to have a less polluting car, but we can't force them to use public transit because it is the mode of transport we chose ti use.  Car users are taxpayers too.

Should we force people to anly eat healthy food because bad food can make us sick?  Can we force people not to do rough sports because they might get injured and we will have to pay to care for them?  Can we force someone to study engineering instead of philosophy because there are more job openings in Engeneering?  Can we force healthy people on wellfare to work?  Can we force someone who works part time (and doesn't receive wellfare or other subsidies) to work full time because there is a worker shortage and because we don't get enough tax revenues from ihis shorter week day?  No, we can't.  We can try to convince them, we can make it easier for them to make the choices that is best for society, but we can't bent their free will because we would prefer they have another lifestyle.

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Est-ce qu'on se pose les mêmes questions lorsque par exemple des tours à bureau ou des salles de spectacles sont érigées loin* du centre-ville?   --Non, ou rarement.  Devrait-on le faire?  --Je pense que oui, dans une perspective globale, pas au cas par cas, et sans que cela n'implique nécessairement qu'on devrait s'opposer à ces développements.  Nous avons besoin d'une vision qui embrasse l'ensemble du territoire métropolitain, et se libérer d'un discours qui se limite à opposer le centre à la périphérie, car l'un et l'autre doivent se compléter.

* Pas dans les environs de l'échangeur Décarie, qui posent des problèmes d'une autre nature, et qui appellent des réponses particulières.

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2 hours ago, ToxiK said:

I don't have a car, I use public transport, but I can understand why people with cars might get frustrated.  We all pay taxes (almost...) and we should all get something we want.  We can't always take, take, take from the same people and then tell them we don't want them to use their car because we don't like it.  We can ask them to have a less polluting car, but we can't force them to use public transit because it is the mode of transport we chose ti use.  Car users are taxpayers too.

Should we force people to anly eat healthy food because bad food can make us sick?  Can we force people not to do rough sports because they might get injured and we will have to pay to care for them?  Can we force someone to study engineering instead of philosophy because there are more job openings in Engeneering?  Can we force healthy people on wellfare to work?  Can we force someone who works part time (and doesn't receive wellfare or other subsidies) to work full time because there is a worker shortage and because we don't get enough tax revenues from ihis shorter week day?  No, we can't.  We can try to convince them, we can make it easier for them to make the choices that is best for society, but we can't bent their free will because we would prefer they have another lifestyle.

10

I agree you can't force people to not use the car but you can make it more advantageous for them to use public transport (high densification, great public transport). Look at London or New York, why would you have a car there?

Can we force healthy people on welfare to work? Unfortunately, we can't, but we should be able to...

Modifié par georgeplamondon10
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Il y a 2 heures, ToxiK a dit :

I don't have a car, I use public transport, but I can understand why people with cars might get frustrated.  We all pay taxes (almost...) and we should all get something we want.  We can't always take, take, take from the same people and then tell them we don't want them to use their car because we don't like it.  We can ask them to have a less polluting car, but we can't force them to use public transit because it is the mode of transport we chose ti use.  Car users are taxpayers too.

Should we force people to anly eat healthy food because bad food can make us sick?  Can we force people not to do rough sports because they might get injured and we will have to pay to care for them?  Can we force someone to study engineering instead of philosophy because there are more job openings in Engeneering?  Can we force healthy people on wellfare to work?  Can we force someone who works part time (and doesn't receive wellfare or other subsidies) to work full time because there is a worker shortage and because we don't get enough tax revenues from ihis shorter week day?  No, we can't.  We can try to convince them, we can make it easier for them to make the choices that is best for society, but we can't bent their free will because we would prefer they have another lifestyle.

We won't convince people to willfully pay taxes to build more public transport they don,t wanna use. We are well beyond talking and debating. We do it, end of the line. Because it's best for society. I'm not talking about forcing them to take them. I'm just sayin' they don't have a choice if we use taxes to build what's needed best, and don't use them to build more of something that is proven (most of the time) bad for the whole. I repeat : it is not because they make a choice that is bad for society (that they are free to make, yes), that we should build infrastructures to help them perpetuate that choice.

Your analogies concerning food or rough sports are not valid : we do not use billions of dollars in our taxes to build giant McDonalds or big arenas where people will do extreme fighting for free! 

Car users maybe taxpayers, but they've had decades until now of investments for them. Cities and shopping malls have been designed FOR them (and still are). Commuters haven't had that much chance in many places since the 60s, and they have been paying taxes too! So the time has come to reverse the situation. The way I see it, car maniacs are in debt and they will have to start repaying.

And I drive a car!  I just know that a certain way of living has to change a lot (not disappear totally, of course, but change).

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il y a une heure, georgeplamondon10 a dit :

I agree you can't force people to not use the car but you can make it more advantageous for them to use public transport (high densification, great public transport). Look at London or New York, why would you have a car there?

Can we force healthy people on welfare to work? Unfortunately, we can't, but we should be able to...

There are 2 ways to convince people to switch to public transit: by pulling them or by pushing them.  Pulling them means giving them better public transit options or more frequency.  Pushing them includes more toll bridges, less lanes, less parking.  Pulling is the best way to bring people to use public transport.  Angrying people will just end up by pushing them away from public transit.

il y a une heure, MtlMan a dit :

Your analogies concerning food or rough sports are not valid : we do not use billions of dollars in our taxes to build giant McDonalds or big arenas where people will do extreme fighting for free! 

Well, Royalmount (because this is what this threat is suppose to be about...) is privately built.  True, governements don't build McDonald's, but we build roads and public transit that leads toward those restaurants.  And we put billions in hospitals for people who get sick from eating badly.

There is a cost for everything.

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Il y a 14 heures, ToxiK a dit :

 

Well, Royalmount (because this is what this threat is suppose to be about...) is privately built.  True, governements don't build McDonald's, but we build roads and public transit that leads toward those restaurants.  And we put billions in hospitals for people who get sick from eating badly.

There is a cost for everything.

Geez, roads lead anywhere. Are we financing crack houses becaused we can drive there? My god, I'm stopping this right here....

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Il y a 16 heures, ToxiK a dit :

There are 2 ways to convince people to switch to public transit: by pulling them or by pushing them.  Pulling them means giving them better public transit options or more frequency.  Pushing them includes more toll bridges, less lanes, less parking.  Pulling is the best way to bring people to use public transport.  Angrying people will just end up by pushing them away from public transit.

Vrai, mais comme l'argent n'est pas illimité, il faut tranquilement déplacer les investissements vers des solutions viables, donc nécessairement financer moins de routes et plus de transport en commun.

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