geraldshaw

Re 200m limit. If and when an architectural gem were to be proposed for  275-300m located in the new core, with an ad hoc permission to build, because of a record and  separate  $100 million social housing project elsewhere  that breaks even  --  if it is truly a gem - like a PVM in 1962  - political pressure during the municipal election might do the trick.  

8 months since the announcement of REM B,  we still have no  professional  renderings by the Caisse-Infra  of the above ground  look along R-L/|SherbrookeE. Just a tiny little inset box above as in "trace arien". And virtually all outside observers are against the above ground look, however it may look. Clearly the Caisse is in no hurry to show their  ugly scar along R-L and Sherbrooke E  to Montrealers.  Now the politicians recognize REM-B  enclaves are not popular and bad for votes. This project is dying by a thousand cuts. So let's ask the Caisse to withdraw it.

Quote

 

The whole project is going nowhere 

I cannot imagine wanting to buy a condo which requires me to enter beside a Macdonald's then walk  3/4 of  a block inside some corridor before I get to my building  entrance. I assume the developers tried to buy the Macdonald's and create  an attractive  driveway and entrance  to the building   -- fountain, nice landscaping. Right now 1000's building is trapped behind a concrete corridor  and a fast food restaurant. Maybe the delays  will fix this.

On 2021-05-19 at 12:32 PM, samal90 said:

The problem is you have to convince people to move away from planes and cars and into trains. That won't happen unless you have a TGV. Period.

Nobody is going to sacrifice a 1hr plane ride for a 4h-4:15h train one, to go from Mtl to TO. It's just not worth it.

Who will take the HFR? the same people using train now. That's it. They need to cut down the travel time to 2.5-3h max. I understand the political/economics issue...but the reality is that unless we have that, we won't see a significant shift of transportation behaviour in the population.

Add the time at $35 by taxi to drive to Trudeau airport and the check-in 1 hour rule before flight time and then the $60 taxi in Toronto or $15 train ride to  downtown and the cost of airfare double to triple the train, I suggest that the current VIA wins the race.

3 minutes ago, geraldshaw said:

Mr not Dr  Speirs in my time was the best advisor in my life. He was a kind and special leader of SHS and when I was there from 1955, we  all respected, indeed as we look back we adored him. I graduated in 1967.  I am sorry that you feel so  unhappy with him. 

PS I know it breaks the rules, but if  Same Guy wants to, I would love to discuss Mr/Dr Speirs in a phone call converstion.

Call me anytime at 514 937 4184.  Gerald DeWolf Shaw

25 minutes ago, SameGuy said:

Punch Dr Speirs in the junk for me when you meet him.

Mr not Dr  Speirs in my time was the best advisor in my life. He was a kind and special leader of SHS and when I was there from 1955, we  all respected, indeed as we look back we adored him. I graduated in 1967.  I am sorry that you feel so  unhappy with him. 

4 hours ago, Rocco said:

Ils ne sont plus là depuis la reconversion en Forum Pepsi. Et quand on parle de "its original design", j'imagine qu'on parle de la version antérieure à celle des années 60-70 en tôle beige qui était toute aussi laide (première photo). Le Forum original (2e et 3e photo).

35 minutes ago, Rocco said:

Entre ce qu'il y avait "en dedans" et ce qu'il y avait "en dehors", y'a une marge. Les souvenirs des bons moments ne devraient pas influer sur l'architecture horrible qui l'entouraient.

Starting at age 11 and on  I would go in the the old Forum  in 1961  for $1 standing only,  way up above the "grays" to watch  my heart throb  heroes  Beliveau, Geoffrion, the Rocket and Pocket  Rocket Richards work their magic.  They were everything to me, a WASP Selwyn House private school boy. They bound Montrealers and Quebecers  together in those, our  salad days.  Restoring the old Forum's outside is long overdue. 

A new beach where no-one can swim. What a farce.

https://montrealgazette.com/category/news/

On 2021-06-14 at 9:18 AM, Dominic723 said:

No chance to be demolish

https://www.lieuxpatrimoniaux.ca/en/rep-reg/place-lieu.aspx?id=7464 

So restore the Forum exterior to its orginal design -- it was quite  a beauty.

QUINZECENT  - Sorry to interrupt .....

So long since a pic? Are they still below ground?

6 hours ago, vincenzo said:

It’s very feasible if instead of a RL route they choose a southern route (st Antoine, Notre dame, de la commune)

I hear you. Seems like you too are not going to 'give it up"  (i.e., the saving of Rene-Levesque)  either, with your alternative routes..

Hopefully all the new residents of Square Children's will  get together and  petition the city to tear down the old Forum which is now looking like horror film set with its  black tacky look alike of an old tubed steel clad  Ontario Place pavilion -- it has to be the ugliest monstrosity in the West End.

3 hours ago, geraldshaw said:

 

If so,  then surely  you will agree that  the  drawings by the Caisse Infra just above of "trace ariens dans le terre-plein central" on Rene-Levesque, Notre Dame and Sherbrooke  also have "ZERO" to do with this topic. Go figure. 

I would like the REM Information sessions to show how the projects with above ground lines are designed to mitigate risks due to earthquakes. Of Canada's largest cities, most Montrealers do not know that we are #2 in Canada Vancouver is #1 for earthquake damage risk. 

3 hours ago, geraldshaw said:

New York Times today - front page investigation of Mexico City elevated metro line collapse 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/06/12/world/americas/mexico-city-train-crash.html

2 hours ago, SameGuy said:

Which has ZERO to do with this topic.

If so,  then surely  you will agree that  the  drawings by the Caisse Infra just above of "trace ariens dans le terre-plein central" on Rene-Levesque also have "ZERO" to do with this topic. Go figure. 

2 minutes ago, geraldshaw said:

 

If so,  then surely  you will agree that  the  drawings by the Caisse Infra just above of "trace ariens dans le terre-plein central" on Rene-Levesque, Notre Dame and Sherbrooke  also have "ZERO" to do with this topic. Go figure. 

New York Times today - front page investigation of Mexico City elevated metro line collapse 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/06/12/world/americas/mexico-city-train-crash.html

Skilled labour shortages occur  not  only because of the construction industry's  oligopolistic controls. It  happens when the taxation, language  and immigration  laws are unwelcoming to new entrants. Quebec has the lowest birth date in Canada, meaning that to avoid shortages of labour, there needs to be at least double the current number of annual  immigrants -- but policy has been to cut immigration  by 30%, because it is thought that is good for voters. Go figure why construction projects take so much longer to build. In the 1960s when Place Victoria was under construction, two storeys  per   week was achieved.

27 minutes ago, Julpyz said:

https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=2219536&binId=1.1332485&playlistPageNum=1

 

The chime is just a boring duuuu-doooo.. 

6 hours ago, Decel said:

Pas d’impact pour Québec, persiste la Caisse de dépôt

https://www.lapresse.ca/affaires/2021-06-10/depassements-de-couts-du-rem/pas-d-impact-pour-quebec-persiste-la-caisse-de-depot.php

 

 

4 hours ago, champdemars said:

Ou encore, le REM va entraîner une densification urbaine et donc une possibilité d’avoir plus de résidents près du centre et des stations.

Ces résidents peuvent aussi provenir de l’immigration intérieure ou extérieure. Dans ces cas ce n’est pas un transfert modal mais quand même une bonne chose. Le REM aura permis un ralentissement de l’étalement urbain axé sur l’auto. Il pourrait causer un certain étalement urbain mais si cela se fait autour du transport en commun, ça devrait être plutôt positif.

 

Breadcrumb Trail Links

Opinion 

Columnists

Quebec's misplaced loyalty to concrete, a rigid sponge

Author of the article:

Peter F. Trent  •  Special to Montreal Gazette

Publishing date:

Jun 10, 2021  •  10 hours ago  •  3 minute read  •   Join the conversation

Construction of the REM at Highway 40 in Dollard-des-Ormeaux continues on Thursday March 25, 2021. PHOTO BY DAVE SIDAWAY /Montreal Gazette

Article content

Thanks to the operation of neophilia — the love of novelty — in our society, the allure of newness often stifles caution. For example, when it comes to the Réseau express métropolitain (REM), there has been little public comment on the wisdom of choosing an elevated rail system. Aside from its ugliness, that is.

Now, while elevated rail is new to Montreal, the material selected — reinforced concrete — is certainly not.

Quebec’s civil engineers have bestowed upon concrete a loyalty that, despite a succession of failures, often outlasted the object of their affections. For aboveground road structures, engineers kept returning to their main mistress of materials no matter how often it let them — and taxpayers — down:

The Champlain Bridge was opened in 1962. The deck and its supporting girders used reinforced concrete. Fifty years later, it was clear a new bridge had to be built.

In 1971, Laval’s De la Concorde concrete overpass was completed. It collapsed in 2006, killing five.

Some uses were plain weird. Take concrete sunshades. To help drivers emerging from tunnels adjust to the sun, hundreds of concrete grilles, weighing a tonne each, were suspended over the roadway and held up by 30-tonne concrete beams, one of which collapsed in 2011.

The elevated concrete Turcot Interchange, built in 1967, was riddled with holes, patches and exposed reinforcing when the project to replace it began in 2015. Turcot was sensibly rebuilt on terra firma, using (gasp!) steel beams for overpasses.

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Quebec is littered with such examples. Concrete failure was deemed to be caused by human error (is there any other kind?). Insufficient or misplaced reinforcing was usually blamed.

While concrete is superb in resisting compressive (downward) forces, it is weak when used — as in the above projects — as a solid beam. This is where reinforcing steel comes in: buried in the concrete, it serves as its secret source of strength.

But reinforcing steel has its own vulnerability: it mustn’t be exposed to air or water. Small problem: concrete, which serves as its protective sheath, is permeable. It is a rigid sponge.

Concrete is made by mixing cement powder, sand, gravel and water. Now, to make concrete placeable, a greater quantity of water is needed than the amount needed to react with the cement to make the whole mass harden. This excess water eventually migrates through the concrete and evaporates. The passages the water creates to make good its exit become permanent two-way avenues within the concrete.

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In mild or non-coastal climates, these pores present little difficulty. But freezing cycles can cause sodden pores to burst and concrete to spall. Visiting water (often laced with de-icing salt) can make its way to, and start corroding, the reinforcing steel, which then expands. The concrete fissures from this inside job. In elevated structures, truck (or train) vibrations aggravate matters when things get cracking.

This is how, during Quebec winters, water has the power to weaken concrete and its reinforcing.

Now on to the REM project. While today’s inexplicable infatuation with mid-century modern fashions has yet to die, mimicking elevated concrete expressways when building new rail lines is retrograde. They should be buried.

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That said, the REM’s quality control is exceptional. The reinforced concrete supports for the tracks are made up of a series of hollow shapes called segmental box girders, all of which are made in a factory. Elevated expressways generally used cast-in-place concrete, causing inevitable job-site goof-ups. REM is also using superior concrete. But concrete is still permeable, still a rigid sponge.

While I don’t agree with the claim that the REM elevated structures will last 100 years, I am not suggesting they could self-destruct. I am saying that, with all the staining, patching and repairs of the concrete becoming eventually necessary, if you think they look ugly now — just wait.

Peter F. Trent is a former mayor of Westmount. From 1971 to 1989, he was co-founder and CEO of Plastibeton Inc, a worldwide pioneer in polymer concrete technology.

So classy. Close to being our Chrysler  building of 2021

REM A report is quite fantastic in every possible way.

The only drawing by Caisse-Infra for REM Est and their "consultations" is a look at REM Est  on R-L in front of the Chinatown gates.    Without doubt this is proof that la   Caisse Infra is mocking the intelligence of Montrealers with its omission of the view from  Robert-Bourassa  aong  R-L to the Chinatown gates. They act like  confidence tricksters but  to all  objective observers, their  omissions are a declaration  of their  defeat and reckless incompetence. Who will be the first  fall guy to be ordered to  fall on his sword? Poor scapegoat. The CEO of both the   Caisse and las Caisse-Infra should be  ones to resign,  in disgrace and without further delays. They  both   must resign now or have an investigation order it before the election. 

26 minutes ago, crosbyshow said:

You should spend the same energy on the extension of the blue line because this is the real scandal...with that price for only 6 km.

 

Je sais pas c'est quoi ton but la dedans ..il y a quelque chose qu'on sait pas... cest louche ton affaire  très louche..

i love my city and I fear that a permanent scar will be created by an above ground line along R-L. I have no hidden agenda. Once this project   gets a rubber stamp from the Quebec government -  it will be too late to stop it. As it stands now the  citizens seem to care less and I fear they will get what they deserve for their silence.

7 hours ago, lma13 said:

I think you need to chill out we haven't seen anything yet of the project. And the caisse is only building what the government is asking it. 

Hard to chill out when I see  this drawing in le Journal de Montreal today,

On 2021-05-12 at 9:35 AM, geraldshaw said:

There needs to be an investigation and forensic audit  by the Auditor General of Quebec of  Caisse-Infra regarding REM-Est and other projects that are being kept secret from the public.   Caisse Infra managers  are squandering millions of dollars of  our pension savings to fund the REM-Est  project and now announce a pretense of consultation,  while keeping  secret the drawings  away from Quebecers  -- drawings  of the scars that REM Est  will cause across the city. This is outrageous. Top  management of  Caisse-Infra should resign. Caisse  Directors should be called out  by the public as to their  lack of oversight of REM-Est. The very idea of keeping secret  drawings that Caisse-Infra  knows full well will kill  the project while concurrently driving on spending/wasting millions of dollars of our pension money needs the Auditor General's immediate attention and several resignations and sackings at the Caisse. 

So much uber silence on this opinion. Have emailed to letters to the editor of the Gazette. My written French translation would fail with La Presse and le Journal de Montreal and le Devoir which I read every day. I would like a poster here to send similar letters to the French papers... no problem quoting me. There is a scandal brewing inside  the Caisse on REM Est  with circular firing squads being formed. Vital that this site be fed to the protagonists.

There needs to be an investigation and forensic audit  by the Auditor General of Quebec of  Caisse-Infra regarding REM-Est and other projects that are being kept secret from the public.   Caisse Infra managers  are squandering millions of dollars of  our pension savings to fund the REM-Est  project and now announce a pretense of consultation,  while keeping  secret the drawings  away from Quebecers  -- drawings  of the scars that REM Est  will cause across the city. This is outrageous. Top  management of  Caisse-Infra should resign. Caisse  Directors should be called out  by the public as to their  lack of oversight of REM-Est. The very idea of keeping secret  drawings that Caisse-Infra  knows full well will kill  the project while concurrently driving on spending/wasting millions of dollars of our pension money needs the Auditor General's immediate attention and several resignations and sackings at the Caisse. 

35 minutes ago, Né entre les rapides said:

Because of the hefty price tag, or for another reason?

You are most certainly aware that Hamilton is kind of becoming a far-flung suburb of Toronto: do you think it makes a difference in the form of intra-Hamilton public transit requirements? 

Yes I am aware having lived in Toronto --  and Pointe aux Trembles is still a distant suburb to our downtown. A nicely designed tram from P aux T  along Sherbrooke, Notre Dame, R-L and onto  to  Atwater and then onto  Lachine could be a beautiful   "cross town"  public transportation  line, with a North South tram  from Montreal North -      that would  bind the Island of Montreal as never before    as the Metro did in 1966 for the city of Montreal.  And could do so in 5-6 years not 10 or most likely  never as REM Est is -- a neverendum debate  for a project that won't even show the population their secret  design for what  of the damage to R-L  would look like and hold "consultations" with that hidden secret--  and  that  we all know now,  goes nowhere.