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MTLskyline

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Hehehe :) Isn't he in the tribunal right now? I haven't been following too closely.

 

I thought he was in Guantanamo just waiting to die (easier then a trial I suppose).

 

Don't get me wrong, if he is guilty, he should rot in prison. Bur to know that he is guilty, he needs to be put on trial. A widely believed fact is not good enough to keep someone in jail.

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I agree with you on that, someone needs a trial not just to give them the Kafka treatment. But everyone is rallying around Khadr, I mean of any person they had to pick that guy... particularly when considering the factors that he was an enemy combatant in a war, historically there would not be such a trial as Mr. Khadr would no longer exist :D

 

In timely news AFP says this:

 

Khadr lawyer asks US high court to stop Guantanamo trial

 

(AFP) – 7 hours ago

 

WASHINGTON — The military attorney for Canadian Omar Khadr, whose war crimes trial was set to open August 10 in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, has asked the US Supreme Court for an urgent suspension of the trial.

 

In a petition, a copy of which was obtained by AFP Tuesday, Jon Jackson asked the US high court to have an appeals court make a ruling on the constitutionality of special military tribunals at the US naval base in Guantanamo. Khadr, 23, is set to be tried before one of them.

 

In the alternative, Jackson argued, the high court could issue its own decision on the courts' constitutionality.

 

US forces in Afghanistan took Khadr prisoner when he was just 15 years old in July 2002. He was later charged with war crimes for allegedly throwing a grenade that killed a US soldier, and now is the last Westerner held Guantanamo Bay.

 

"The Military Commissions Act of 2009 limits the jurisdiction of military commissions convened under its authority to non-citizen unlawful enemy belligerents," Jackson wrote.

 

"The uniqueness of that jurisdictional limitation in American military history cannot be overstated. Without exception, since the Revolutionary War, both the ordinary, courts-martial system and the jurisdiction of +law-of-war+ military commissions have tried Americans alongside aliens," he stressed.

 

Khadr, who has sacked his American defense lawyers and refused a plea deal, is facing the possibility of life in prison.

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Read my post later on if you haven't yet. Comparing crime in Quebec/Canada to the US is comparing apples to oranges. Do we share a largely unprotected border with Mexico? Do we have millions of former slaves residing in drug-ridden ghettos? No. Aside from areas with large native populations, crime in Canada is low to begin with. That doesn't mean that we should go easy on the crime that does occur.

 

We do share a largely unprotected border with the USA...

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We do share a largely unprotected border with the USA...

 

Mexico is in a state of violence unimaginable even in most wars... border towns are having a dozen murders every day, people go to the supermarket to buy a head of lettuce and find the severed head of the chief of police there instead... it is ridiculous and unacceptable. http://www.nationalpost.com/Seventeen+people+shot+party+northern+Mexico/3293485/story.html , http://www.nationalpost.com/Drug+Gravity/3129531/story.html

 

Investigations continue after 55 bodies were discovered in an abandoned silver mine in southern Mexico that was apparently used as a dumping ground for victims of drug-related violence.

 

Drug-related violence continued unabated in Mexico with six headless bodies found on Sunday night, "in a half-hour period," in different parts of the city of Gomez Palacio in northern Durango state.

 

 

ouasshhh

 

The USA is a peaceful, safe country with comparable living standards to ours... the last real criminal act I heard of was right next to my cottage, a crazy guy went and killed an 89 year old woman I knew and stole her car after killing another man and stealing his rifle... he was Canadian escaped from Nova Scotia...

Modifié par Cyrus
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You're a real barrel of laughs MtlMan.

 

Ah oui bien sûr, c'est la faute des "importés". Les bons américains eux ne vendent pas de drogue et ne violent pas et ne tuent pas une paquet de monde dans des McDos, entre autres. À une autre époque c'était la faute des Juifs, ou des Gitans. Ou bien sûr des "sodomistes", ou des femmes de petite vertu, ou.......:yawning:

You have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps its because you don't live next door to a third world country. The fact that the majority of the US/Mexican border is unprotected allows for a very large amount of drug smuggling (denying this would make you more naive than I thought). You have no idea how lucky you have it living next to the most powerful country in the world. You take security for granted.

 

Et alors? L'approche "tough on crime" ne règle pas plus leurs problèmes! Des investissements dans l'éducation, des activités sportives et culturelles, de la formation professionnelle, des emplois, voilà qui est une véritable SOLUTION. Pffffff..... Tu saisis vraiment pas vieux.....

If it wasn't for a tough on crime approach, the situation would be much worse. I never said you didn't need to invest in education, etc (George W. Bush was the best President for the US public education system in decades, although the teachers unions would never admit it). Look at Mexican levels of crime and compare it to US levels. Now if it weren't for the fine men and women of US law enforcement, it would be you in Canada that would be living next to a crime ridden mess.

 

 

Non, pas nécessaire. C'est assez tordu comme ça.

Too complicated for you to understand, eh? I've tried explaining fractions to you ten times, Billy! What is it you don't get? :sarcastic:

 

Quelle pure malhonnêteté! Ça sent le harperisme étroit à plein nez. Où ai-je dit que je souhaitais RÉ-HABILITER des criminels endurcis? Quelqu'un svp peut-il me citer, si c'est le cas? J'ai bien spécifié que dans certains cas, il faut être dur, et appliquer la tolérance zéro. Le problème avec ton approche, c'est que c'est une illusion de solution. CE N'EST QU'UN OUTIL PARMI D'AUTRES QUI PEUT ÊTRE NÉCESSAIRE DANS CERTAINS CAS, mais la MEILLEURE SOLUTION à long terme, c'est l'approche préventive, et les méthodes alternatives.

What preventative /alternative methods do you speak of? So far, you have come up with zero suggestions. I'll give you a little bit of time to think about it. When you good and ready, you can present them to us for scrutiny.

 

Annuler les sorties de prison trop hâtives pour les criminels endurcis, bien sûr! Mais ça n'empêchera pas d'autres de faire des crimes! Tout comme la peine de mort n'empêche manifestement pas beaucoup d'Américains de tuer et de violer! ET PUIS, LES CRIMINELS ENDURCIS, OU IRRÉCUPÉRABLES, NE CONSTITUENT QU'UNE MINORITÉ DE LA POPULATION CARCÉRALE.

You're forgetting once again what I wrote earlier. The US is full of crime ridden ghettos. What led them to be crime ridden? Mostly drugs. What is the easiest way to get drugs into the US? The largely unprotected Mexican border.

 

Tough on crime doesn't act as a preventative method itself. There will always be certain people who aren't wired up properly who commit all sorts of heinous crimes. What tough-on-crime does do is prevent criminals from re-offending. Locking younger criminals away for a long time will give them time to mature, all the while keeping the public safe while they are still unstable. Giving a 20-year old drug dealer a two year sentence does very little, because he will surely re-offend open exiting. Giving him a 15-20 year sentence will mean that he is 35-40 when he leaves prison, and his hormones have cooled down a bit.

 

 

OUI JE VEUX QU'ON LE RAMÈNE! NOUS SOMMES CAPABLES DE LE JUGER NOUS-MÊMES, merde! Si Harper n'est pas capable d'affirmer la souveraineté canadienne face aux Américains, qu'il laisse la place à quelqu'un qui saura le faire. Quel médiocre à-plat-ventriste! ET PUIS, UN CAS COMME CELUI DE KHADR, C'EST CE QU'ON APPELLE UN ENFANT-SOLDAT! Il Y a des conventions internationales qui traitent de ça. Manifestement, tu n'en sais strictement rien. La réhabilitation de milliers d'entre eux se fait en Afrique, et cela est infiniment plus constructifs et profitable à la société que de les laisser pourrir en prison. BIEN SÛR, IL Y EN AURA TOUJOURS QUI SERONT À JAMAIS PERDUS, alors pour ceux-ci il restera l'incarcération perpétuelle. C'est tout.

I don't consider him Canadian at all (neither do most Canadians). He is a Muslim terrorist! An enemy of the state. He threw a grenade that killed a US army medic (and if you look at the picutre that cyrus posted, he is parading some dead person's hand around town). Yes there are international conventions! Killing medics in war is not allowed. What is merited in this case is the death penalty for killing an Allied Medic. He is a traitor to "his country" (which is nothing more than a residence of convenience. Do you actually believe that he would happily vote NDP, drive a prius and abandon his religion like other Canadian leftists?

 

 

Encore la propagande populiste typiquement harperiste: si vous n'êtes pas assez "dur", c'est que vous vous foutez des pauvres victimes. Appliquons la simple logique: SI LA MÉTHODE DURE NE PRÉVIENT PAS LES CRIMES, ET QUE LA MÉTHODE ALTERNATIVE OBTIENT DE MEILLEURS RÉSULTATS, ALORS EN APPLIQUANT CETTE DERNIÈRE NOUS ÉVITONS À DES TAS DE GENS DE DEVENIR DES VICTIMES, OU PARENTS DE VICTIMES, DANS L'AVENIR!

Alternative methods such as what? And you have found no proof whatsoever that alternative methods are more successful than tough on crime methods. Short of imprisoning potential loose cannons before they commit any crime, there is not a whole lot (aside from securing our borders, undertaking a more vigorous war on drugs, hiring more police officers) that will prevent crime. Tough on crime reacts to the crime to make sure that crimes are adequately punished, and possibility of re-offense is eliminated.

 

Et oui, comme n'importe quelle personne douée d'émotion, je compatis avec les victimes. Mais l'institutionnalisation de la vengeance ne ramènera pas les victimes à leur vie antérieure, et n'empêchera pas les futurs criminels d'agir. Les individus sont importants, mais la société dans laquelle ils vivent conditionnent leur bien-être encore plus que la satisfaction de leur pulsions vengeresses viscérales, certes normales, mais profondément destructrices socialement si institutionnalisées comme tu semble le vouloir. JE CROIS PROFONDÉMENT QUE L'APPROCHE ALTERNATIVE FAIT UNE SOCIÉTÉ MEILLEURE, ET DONC DES INDIVIDUS MIEUX SERVIS PAR CELLE-CI, ET, FINALEMENT, PEUT-ÊTRE PLUS HEUREUX.

You misunderstood the purpose of imprisonment. The main purpose (while partially to punish) is really to prevent re-offense by the same person. Its happened time and time again that hardened criminals, released early from prison have re-offended. Ever heard of Julie Boisvenu (daughter of Tory senator Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu)? She was killed by Hugo Bernier, a man with a long criminal record for sexual assault, who only served a sixth of his 18 month prison sentence. Nice to see the therapy and group hugs he got instead turned him into a normal person.

 

Ta pauvre théorie, au-delà de sa complète vacuité intellectuelle et logique, finit par faire plus de tort que de bien à notre société. Tu fais partie du problème, mec. Tout comme ton compagnon de lit idéologique, Harper.

You've got it backwards. Your alternative methods are riddled with holes. In order to best prevent re-offense, nothing beats tough on crime (and minimum sentencing), period. I just find it very interesting how you have more sympathy for the criminals than for the victims. It says a lot about your character.

 

En passant, tu n'as pas répondu à mon interrogation: es-tu aussi insécure et assoifé de puissance virtuelle que tes réponses le laissent entendre?:chillpill:

For what reason should I be insecure? I have found peace with God. Until you have truly found peace with God, you will never be happy. :)

 

Now, I hate to be giving a lesson on manners to an adult, but...

 

Look, if you can't take a little bit of heat, you have no reason to be on a discussion forum. Its quite interesting to note how angered you appear to have become by my posts. (I can't make you angry, only you can make yourself angry). It just doesn't look credible to throw a hissy fit when someone disagrees with you. I just hope that I haven't been made a target of one of your hitmen. (Please don't take that literally, or you'll go on another character assassinating tirade) :rotfl:

 

Oh, what the hell. Sling just a bit of mud at me. ;)

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Très bonne réponse de Mtlman. J'aime bien l'expression : l'institutionnalisation de la vengeance, car c'est bien en partie de ça qu'il s'agit, dans la position "texane" de Mtlskyline.

 

Mais il ne faut pas enfermer (sans jeu de mots...) les gens dans une position radicale. Il n'y a que les fous qui se ramènent entièrement à une idéologie rigide.

 

Même sur cet enjeu, Mtlskyline sera bientôt confronté à un beau dilemme. Il semble en effet avoir une certaine admiration pour ce cher Conrad Black, grand défenseur de l'Anglosphère, de la couronne et de toutes les causes conservatrices. (Au point d'avoir pris sa photo comme avatar, la semaine dernière)

 

Mais ce cher Conrad, qui s'y connaît bien désormais en prisons américaines, nous prépare, dit-on, une critique virulente du système carcéral U.S., à paraître bientôt dans le National Post. (stay tuned)

 

Peut-être que tous les conservateurs devraient l'imiter et faire un petit tour en prison avant d'écrire sur le sujet ?

 

Toujours est-il que j'attendrai avec intérêt pour voir de quel côté, le modèle texan ou Conrad, penchera Mtlskyline...

Big difference, Conrad Black is innocent of any crime (the only charge left is obstruction of justice, but if he didn't do anything wrong to begin with, what justice was he obstructing?).

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I don't think there is a real "unprotected" factor to Mexican-US border. It is really really heavily patrolled on the land, in the air, and has fences, rivers etc... the US Customs and Border Patrol is really serious out there. They have Predator drones flying to and fro, they have guys on horseback looking for footprints, they have 21st century and 10th century technology all at once :D I would even say the Canadian-US border is protected... just go and try and cross it through a forest and see what happens. Unless you mean something like Rock Forest...

 

Crime-ridden ghetto? Montreal-North :D

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For what reason should I be insecure? I have found peace with God. Until you have truly found peace with God, you will never be happy. :)

 

J'imagine qu'il y a plusieurs façons d'interpréter ce qu'est la "paix avec Dieu". Je crois pouvoir me considérer heureux de vivre "en bien" en adhérant à des valeurs universelles, comme celles décrites dans les Évangiles, même si je n'ai pas la foi en la Trinité. J'ai toujours cru que ces valeurs de tolérance extrême, de don de soit et de pardon sans condition étaient de loin ce qu'il y avait de plus important dans la religion, et de plus difficile à atteindre. Mais bon, ce n'est qu'une opinion, la religion est une chose fort complexe et personnelle. J'imagine que c'est pour cette raison que l'on voit autant de contradictions même chez les plus fervents croyants.

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