Lien rapide entre Montréal et Québec

[caribb]

51 minutes ago, Decel said:

Counterpoint: $$ $$$$$ $$ $$$$!

Yes, for sure. Only on the heavily populated and wealthy Tokyo-Osaka corridor does Japan Rail make money. You don’t see high speed rail much outside that region.. none on the west coast. But in terms of speed that’s what we’d need to get a 60 minute trip to Quebec unfortunately. Now if they reconsider the Quebec-Windsor corridor again it could be a reality but both Quebec and Ontario seem to be going forward on high speed rail alone. 

[Decel]

Il y a 1 heure, caribb a dit :

Yes, for sure. Only on the heavily populated and wealthy Tokyo-Osaka corridor does Japan Rail make money. You don’t see high speed rail much outside that region.. none on the west coast. But in terms of speed that’s what we’d need to get a 60 minute trip to Quebec unfortunately. Now if they reconsider the Quebec-Windsor corridor again it could be a reality but both Quebec and Ontario seem to be going forward on high speed rail alone. 

The marginal cost of minutes saved beyond "normal" high-speed is too great (even getting up to high-speed levels will cost a dozen billions, at least).

This is why I was mentioning a sweet-spot: if the train can make the trek in roughly half the time of a conventional car ride, I believe people will greatly opt for it, even given its inconvenience (not point-to-point, need to follow a schedule, baggage limitations, etc.). People think in terms of inconveniences more than conveniences.

Hence a MTL-Drummond-QC in 45+45=90 minutes, and similarly a MTL-OTT-To in 1+2=3 hours would pack the rideship. Assuming the prices stay under a third of a flight cost for said destination.

Besides, if the ride's too fast the Air Canada + Westjet duo will pack an A380 with lawyers and lobbyists to throw at the governement. 

[Né entre les rapides]

il y a 26 minutes, Decel a dit :

The marginal cost of minutes saved beyond "normal" high-speed is too great (even getting up to high-speed levels will cost a dozen billions, at least).

This is why I was mentioning a sweet-spot: if the train can make the trek in roughly half the time of a conventional car ride, I believe people will greatly opt for it, even given its inconvenience (not point-to-point, need to follow a schedule, baggage limitations, etc.). People think in terms of inconveniences more than conveniences.

Hence a MTL-Drummond-QC in 45+45=90 minutes, and similarly a MTL-OTT-To in 1+2=3 hours would pack the rideship. Assuming the prices stay under a third of a flight cost for said destination.

Besides, if the ride's too fast the Air Canada + Westjet duo will pack an A380 with lawyers and lobbyists to throw at the governement. 

These are interesting points.

1)  The additional costs involved in building and operating very high-speed (Très Grande Vitesse en français)) rail lines and trains are indeed substantial, compared to «normal high-speed»; the resulting benefits (avantages) may not warrant it in our markets.

2) As you certainly know, the value of time (saved by using a faster means of transportation) is variable among individuals.  It depends on their income, but also on their time constraints.  For example, for a business person travelling to and from Toronto from Montréal or Ottawa for a one-day meeting (no overnight stay in Toronto),  saving a mere one or two hours is crucial, thus a preference for the fastest option.  On the other hand, for someone who is less time-constrained or less fortunate, rail transportation is preferable, given the price differential with the «air» option.

3) For shorter trips such as Montréal- Québec and Montréal-Ottawa,  air transportation is hardly an option in my own experience: you drive (yourself or in a limousine), or you take the bus or the train (more confortable)  --would be nice it it were faster than at present.  In terms of pricing,  for such trips, I see no need for a huge discount in relation to  the flying option.

4) Much shorter trips, such as to Drummondville or Trois-Rivières (although only one of the two routes would be chosen), it begins to resemble daily commuter trains: it could be interesting for someone living in one of these towns and working in downtown Montreal (avoiding traffic and parking fees), but I sense much lesser interest the other way around.  

[Decel]

Il y a 10 heures, Né entre les rapides a dit :

4) Much shorter trips, such as to Drummondville or Trois-Rivières (although only one of the two routes would be chosen), it begins to resemble daily commuter trains: it could be interesting for someone living in one of these towns and working in downtown Montreal (avoiding traffic and parking fees), but I sense much lesser interest the other way around.  

Yes, to me, if we want to prevent urban sprawl we need to structurally make the neighbouring cities closer in terms of transit time. Drummondville (which I favour because it is bigger, is halfway between MTL-QC on the 20, and has economic momentum going for it) would then be a "suburb" of both Montreal and Quebec. To me Trois-Rivieres comes slightly after (around the same level as connecting Sherbrooke in terms of priority). Connect the big cities together with rapid transit, and the neighbouring smaller cities and villages will gradually blossom.

I'm currently reading the Quebec Code (great book so far btw), and if Quebecers have a village mentality, then we must connect them villages, both in terms of transport and communications (but that's a whole other subject). I also like Couillard's recent idea of expanding transit to the Laurentians (a lot more than his monorail wacko-thingymajig). And we should be connecting Saguenay sooner than later. MTL-Saguenay in 2 hours?!? 

[samal90]

18 hours ago, caribb said:

Japan Rail with the Shinkansen does the 323 (car) mile Tokyo-Osaka run in 2 hours and 30 minutes. 59 miles to Drummondville should be overcome in a blink of an eye using their technology. Quebec is 157 miles away so it should be accomplished in roughly 75 minutes at most. Throw on a maglev and you could probably cut that in half. Drummondville would be a metro stop away.. 

While I like the Maglev technology, it's too expensive for such a low density country like Canada. The Shinkansen or Zefiro is what we need.

Here is the thing a lot of people are not considering though. Yes, we have low density in Quebec/Canada. However, I was speaking with a colleague from France and back in the day, when they were building the RER, they decided where the stations will be, and then neighbourhoods were built around them. Even if stations and trains are expensive, eventually, the density around them will increase significantly as demand for leaving close to the station increases. Therefore, the profitability of these stations will increase after some time.

Same thing with any fast travel train system. If tomorrow there was REM built in St-Jerome that let you go to downtown mtl in 30min, you can bet that suddenly, there will be a quick increase in demand to live there.

[caribb]

3 minutes ago, samal90 said:

While I like the Maglev technology, it's too expensive for such a low density country like Canada. The Shinkansen or Zefiro is what we need.

I was really only mentioning those for the purpose of pointing out what we’d need for speed. It could be argued the Shinkansen is too expensive for us too. I think anything on that level would have to be used on the Windsor to Quebec City corridor, not just Montréal-Quebec.

Getting it down to an Hour or 2.5 hours to Toronto would, as someone mentioned earlier, make it competitive with Air travel... without the hassle of getting from the airport to downtown. Still worth looking at in my opinion. 

[vivreenrégion]

Il y a 3 heures, Decel a dit :

Yes, to me, if we want to prevent urban sprawl we need to structurally make the neighbouring cities closer in terms of transit time. Drummondville (which I favour because it is bigger, is halfway between MTL-QC on the 20, and has economic momentum going for it) would then be a "suburb" of both Montreal and Quebec. To me Trois-Rivieres comes slightly after (around the same level as connecting Sherbrooke in terms of priority). Connect the big cities together with rapid transit, and the neighbouring smaller cities and villages will gradually blossom.

I'm currently reading the Quebec Code (great book so far btw), and if Quebecers have a village mentality, then we must connect them villages, both in terms of transport and communications (but that's a whole other subject). I also like Couillard's recent idea of expanding transit to the Laurentians (a lot more than his monorail wacko-thingymajig). And we should be connecting Saguenay sooner than later. MTL-Saguenay in 2 hours?!? 

La majorité des villes du sud du Québec sont déjà bien connectées entre elles. Il n'y a aucune demande pour amener un TGV à Drummondville ou l'inverse. Même pour Québec, la demande n'est pas assez élevée.

[Davidbourque]

il n'y a pas qu'un problème de densité de population mais aussi de quantité de population. Si Montréal avait la taille de Tokyo et Québec la taille d'Osaka, on en discuterait même pas. 

 

Mais Tokyo seul est plus gros que le québec en entier. 

[franktko]

il y a 4 minutes, Davidbourque a dit :

Mais Tokyo seul est plus gros que le québec en entier. 

Il y a plus de monde à Tokyo que le Canada en entier...

[caribb]

Tokyo-Yokohama-Nagoya-Kyoto-Osaka is one huge gigantic urban region. Basically a single city that goes from Toronto to Montreal if overlayed onto Canada. 

Modifié 15 mars 2018 par caribb