Transports en commun - Discussion générale

[SameGuy]

The incident in New York involved a bendy bus on an overpass, not any form of train on an elevated guideway. But do go on.

[champdemars]

il y a 38 minutes, geraldshaw a dit :

Is discussion of the  accident liability  risk due to elevated  REM-est rail in downtown Montreal  allowed on this thread? There was a derailment today in NYC from the elevated rail line to the street. Front page of the NY Times. There are  many, many  examples. Attached is a Chicago LOOP disaster that killed several passengers and also  people walking on the street below. Imagine this on Rene-Levesque. And in the case below Chicago  had human beings as drivers.

REM-est will be driven by computers.  We live in a harsh winter climate (normally) with 90 inches of snow each winter and ice storms that will inevitably cause a REM  derailment at some horrible date in the future  which  will cause the public to demand human drivers and concurrently  destroy  the economic model for the Caisse, unless they have an escape clause for Acts of God and more likely a Quebec government (ie, all of us) pay for a bail out and re-engineering for human drivers.   

S**t happens.

À Montréal, dans les années 70, un incendie mortel a eu lieu dans le tunnel.

Il y a quelques années, à Toronto, il y a eu une collision de trains dans le métro souterrain faisant plusieurs morts.

On peut sortir un paquet d'accidents de métros souterrains. On peut sortir un paquet d'accidents de tramways. On peut sortir un paquet d'accidents de bus.

[Enalung]

44 minutes ago, geraldshaw said:

Is discussion of the  accident liability  risk due to elevated  REM-est rail in downtown Montreal  allowed on this thread? There was a derailment today in NYC from the elevated rail line to the street. Front page of the NY Times. There are  many, many  examples. Attached is a Chicago LOOP disaster that killed several passengers and also  people walking on the street below. Imagine this on Rene-Levesque. And in the case below Chicago  had human beings as drivers.

REM-est will be driven by computers.  We live in a harsh winter climate (normally) with 90 inches of snow each winter and ice storms that will inevitably cause a REM  derailment at some horrible date in the future  which  will cause the public to demand human drivers and concurrently  destroy  the economic model for the Caisse, unless they have an escape clause for Acts of God and more likely a Quebec government (ie, all of us) pay for a bail out and re-engineering for human drivers.   

It took me all of 30 seconds to find the related information:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Chicago_Loop_derailment

This crash is the result of a train failing to yield to a signal. As you mention, the REM is driven by computers. This means that the computer has absolute authority over which train goes where and when. Assuming that it is programmed right, it will have interlocks preventing train movements that would results in a crash, but let's entertain the rest of your suppositions. Even if the REM was driven by humans, the underlying computer system would still be running. Modern metro systems are built in such a way that should a train ever overspeed, or burn a signal, the computer automatically takes over and applies the brakes. In fact, the US now requires similar systems to be installed on all mainline railways. Since our rail operators also run in the US, the very same technology is also being implemented in Canada to prevent trains from running into each other. That's how far we've gotten since that incident in Chicago. The legal requirements are such that trains running into each other is just not something that happens nowadays. Most modern systems have redundancy, and / or systems that detect failures and forces the system in a recovery mode in the event of a failure. As for Ice and Snow, the REM will be running during storms to keep the track and catenary snow and ice free.

Even some acts of god are within the realm of what we can engineer against. Take Japan's metro and railways. As soon as an earthquake is detected, all trains are brought to a stop automatically. The first waves picked up by seismometers aren't the destructive waves, they merely foreshadow what is coming. By the time the actual destructive waves reach, most trains have already come to a full stop. We are at a point where it would truly be an engineering and planning failure if we had a major incident with the REM. There would be peoples responsible who could be prosecuted. 

[geraldshaw]

What  parody (a mocking, not serious) is there discussing  derailments and concurrent injuries and deaths?    Derailments are more common in cold climates, -30C nights  -- due cause  cracked  rails.  Open air trains are far more dangerous than those in tunnels - also 90" of snow and ice storms in normal winters are no parody either. There is no parody in accidental injuries or deaths by derailments or crashes of elevated transit  trains from heights over three stories high   or on the ground level  crashing - including elevated bendy buses for that matter -  in high population zones.   We had 47 dead here in Quebec due to an out of control  train that crashed in the middle of a downtown centre.  Elevated, high platform rail -  40 feet above the ground, with the  risk to life  in downtown Montreal is  a serious matter and certainly not a parody. 

10 minutes ago, SameGuy said:

Is this a parody account?

[Enalung]

8 minutes ago, geraldshaw said:

What  parody (a mocking, not serious) is there discussing  derailments and concurrent injuries and deaths?    Derailments are more common in cold climates, -30C nights  -- due cause  cracked  rails.  Open air trains are far more dangerous than those in tunnels - also 90" of snow and ice storms in normal winters are no parody either. There is no parody in accidental injuries or deaths by derailments or crashes of elevated transit  trains from heights over three stories high   or on the ground level  crashing - including elevated bendy buses for that matter -  in high population zones.   We had 47 dead here in Quebec due to an out of control  train that crashed in the middle of a downtown centre.  Elevated, high platform rail -  40 feet above the ground, with the  risk to life  in downtown Montreal is  a serious matter and certainly not a parody. 

Cracked rails is something that can be detected long before it becomes a problem with automated inspection equipment. Modern rails are also far less likely to have such a failure since they are made more flexible and less brittle then the rails of old. Track movements are a far more likely problem, especially along the Deux-Montagne area which does see periodic flooding. It would be sheer stupidity to run the trains during such conditions, or to run them afterwards without first doing a thorough inspection of the track and embankments.

https://www.mobility.siemens.com/global/en/portfolio/rail/services/digital-services/smart-measurement/broken-rail-detection.html

[geraldshaw]

11 minutes ago, Enalung said:

It took me all of 30 seconds to find the related information:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Chicago_Loop_derailment

This crash is the result of a train failing to yield to a signal. As you mention, the REM is driven by computers. This means that the computer has absolute authority over which train goes where and when. Assuming that it is programmed right, it will have interlocks preventing train movements that would results in a crash, but let's entertain the rest of your suppositions. Even if the REM was driven by humans, the underlying computer system would still be running. Modern metro systems are built in such a way that should a train ever overspeed, or burn a signal, the computer automatically takes over and applies the brakes. In fact, the US now requires similar systems to be installed on all mainline railways. Since our rail operators also run in the US, the very same technology is also being implemented in Canada to prevent trains from running into each other. That's how far we've gotten since that incident in Chicago. The legal requirements are such that trains running into each other is just not something that happens nowadays. Most modern systems have redundancy, and / or systems that detect failures and forces the system in a recovery mode in the event of a failure. As for Ice and Snow, the REM will be running during storms to keep the track and catenary snow and ice free.

Even some acts of god are within the realm of what we can engineer against. Take Japan's metro and railways. As soon as an earthquake is detected, all trains are brought to a stop automatically. The first waves picked up by seismometers aren't the destructive waves, they merely foreshadow what is coming. By the time the actual destructive waves reach, most trains have already come to a full stop. We are at a point where it would truly be an engineering and planning failure if we had a major incident with the REM. There would be peoples responsible who could be prosecuted. 

Most interesting. The trouble is your key assumption "if it is  programmed  right" which of course  is  not always  the case when there is a derailment.  I was shocked by the data on derailments attached. I cannot imagine feeling safe 40 or 60 feet above the  ground in a train without a human driver. 

Attached are the list of train  derailments from 2010-19. In 2018 Canada had 88 derailments. Imagine if Canada had 88 airplane crashes in one year. There would be tidal wave of condemnation of air travel. 

Of course bringing this risk up makes some call me  a "fear monger" or a "conspiracy theorist" or using "hearsay".  Go figure. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_(2010–2019)

[champdemars]

il y a une heure, geraldshaw a dit :

Most interesting. The trouble is your key assumption "if it is  programmed  right" which of course  is  not always  the case when there is a derailment.  I was shocked by the data on derailments attached. I cannot imagine feeling safe 40 or 60 feet above the  ground in a train without a human driver. 

Attached are the list of train  derailments from 2010-19. In 2018 Canada had 88 derailments. Imagine if Canada had 88 airplane crashes in one year. There would be tidal wave of condemnation of air travel. 

Of course bringing this risk up makes some call me  a "fear monger" or a "conspiracy theorist" or using "hearsay".  Go figure. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_(2010–2019)

Ce que Enalung dit, c'est que conducteur ou pas. il y a des systèmes informatiques dans tous les réseaux maintenant et c'est obligatoire.

Sincèrement, si on est en train de discuter à savoir si c'est mieux ou pas d'avoir un conducteur/opérateur dans un train, il me semble que c'est aussi simpliste que de se demander si c'est mieux d'écrire un journal avec un crayon à mine au lieu d'une presse.

Voici ce que prétend: des morts il y en aura moins avec un système sans conducteur. Des morts il y en aura pas plus si le système est aérien.

Cherchez des poux à la voie aérienne, j'ai pas de problème avec ça. C'est laid, c'est mal intégré avec le réseau existant, etc. Mais venez pas me sortir l'argument du métro automatisé et de la sécurité.

[geraldshaw]

1 hour ago, champdemars said:

S**t happens.

À Montréal, dans les années 70, un incendie mortel a eu lieu dans le tunnel.

Il y a quelques années, à Toronto, il y a eu une collision de trains dans le métro souterrain faisant plusieurs morts.

On peut sortir un paquet d'accidents de métros souterrains. On peut sortir un paquet d'accidents de tramways. On peut sortir un paquet d'accidents de bus.

Oui.  Il ya beaucoup  des morts/accidents souterrains sans des les etres humanes a conduire. 

Oui.  Il ya beaucoup  des morts/accidents souterrains sans les etres humanes a conduire. 

1 minute ago, geraldshaw said:

 

Oui.  Il ya beaucoup  des morts/accidents souterrains sans les etres humanes a conduire. 

 

[FrodoMTL]

Are we really having a discussion about the efficacy of an automated rail system in 2021? Ever since a certain poster entered this thread, I've seen a rapid decline in the quality of discussion on here. 🤮🤮

Modifié 16 janvier 2021 par FrodoMTL

[SameGuy]

22 minutes ago, FrodoMTL said:

Are we really having a discussion about the efficacy of an automated rail system in 2021? Ever since a certain poster entered this thread, I've seen a rapid decline in the quality of discussion on here. 🤮🤮

I mean ever since those dang horseless carriages showed up, folks is gettin’ runnd over left an’ right. We shoulda never left the good ol’ days.