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Je vois pas ton lien avec les autoroutes.

 

Les autoroutes canalisent les autos des rues piétonnières. Quand Décarie ferme ou la Ville-Marie, les répercussions sont instantanées sur les artères dans le grand centre ville. Ça te donne une idée de ce que les autoroutes enlèvent comme circulation de la ville.

 

Plus d'autos, plus de traffic, plus de gens frustrés qui font des choses stupides.

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Membres prolifiques

Je vois pas ton lien avec les autoroutes.

 

Les autoroutes canalisent les autos des rues piétonnières. Quand Décarie ferme ou la Ville-Marie, les répercussions sont instantanées sur les artères dans le grand centre ville. Ça te donne une idée de ce que les autoroutes enlèvent comme circulation de la ville.

 

Plus d'autos, plus de traffic, plus de gens frustrés qui font des choses stupides.

L'idee que les autoroutes "canalisent" la traffique mieux que la trame urbaine normal pourrait bien etre une mythe, Malek. Il y a beaucoup d'urbanistes qui disent que les trames urbains traditionels faisaient ca mieux.

 

Aussi, quand tu parle de la detresse quand la Decarie or Ville Marie se ferment, il faut pas oublier que tout les autres rues de Montreal etaient reorienter au meme temp que la construction des autoroutes. Les sens uniques sont relativement nouveaux.

 

Quand une partie de l'autoroute Embarcadero a San Francisco s'est encroule durant une tremblement de terre en 1989, les gens croyaient - comme toi - que ca sera la catastrophe de perdre une autoroute principale comme cela. Mais il n y avait aucun changement dans la densite de traffique, et la ville a meme decide de ne le pas reconstruire.

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Oui, c'est vrai que les autoroutes, au lieu d'améliorer la circulation, l'augmentent. En constuisant des autoroutes supplémentaire, on ne sert qu'à créer un nouveau avantage pour les automobilistes potentiels aux dépens des transports en commun. Le soulagement n'est que temporaire.

 

Si le sujet vous vous intéressez, trouvez "The Power Broker" par Robert Caro à propos de Robert Moses. Les chapitre "One Mile" et "One Mile: Epilogue" sont vraiment incroyables; ils discutent la construction et les conséquences du Cross-Bronx Expressway.

 

http://www.nycroads.com/roads/cross-bronx/

 

Because most of the East Tremont Section of the Expressway runs through a deep cut, all one sees of the great road from adjoining streets is a gap in the ground. There is nothing visible rising out of that gap. But sit next to that gap - or open one of the playgrounds in one of the apartments, approximately 3,000 apartments - whose windows face the gap during rush hours, when down below, the expressway is packed solid with cars and trucks, six lanes across, and soon realizes that something is rising from that gap, filling the air above and around it, filling it with something that if one touched a match to it, would make it burn with a pale-blue flame - the flame emitted by burning carbon monoxide.

 

The human constitution apparently adapts itself to such fumes. One can sit next to the expressway and notices that by the fifth day, the nausea and the headache are gone. But no one knows what the inhalation of carbon monoxide - and assorted hydrocarbons emitted by automobile motors - in diluted form produces.

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AHHH !! Robert Moses. Si les résidents des quartiers Greenwich Village et Soho n'avaient pas réagi en bon NIMBY's, il y aurait une autoroute au milieu de Manhattan et ces deux quartiers ne seraient pas aujourd'hui les lieux de vivacité et d'expression culturelle qu'ils sont devenus ainsi que de destination gastronomique pour les New-Yorkais et les touristes. On compare souvent le Plateau à Grenwich Village -du moins pour l'ambiance : il aurait fallu trouver un autre point de comparaison si Moses l'avait emporté.

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Personne ne propose de construire une autoroute qui passerait au travers du Plateau ou du mile-end.

 

I think it's safe to say we can pretty much agree on this one.

 

But to complain about the COMPLETION of our UNFINISHED NETWORK of Metropolitain highways doesn'T apply. Highways 30 and 25 need to be completed to get trucks off the Island of Montreal.

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In fact, the city had surveyors lay out a plan for a north-south expressway along St. Laurent around 1959, similar time frame as the Cross-Bronx. Lucky that didn't go through.

 

Habsfan, the crux of the traffic generation argument is that a scenario like you mentioned does apply. Traffic flow isn't a static number; it's the result of basic supply and demand. However, in a very real sense, demand for transportation is generally spread across both public transport and private automobiles. If a new road is opened (completion of the 30 or the 25), new drivers/truckers are lured from, say, passenger and freight rail systems. The massive government subsidies that allows a road system to exists, as well as the externalities produced, throws the entire cost/benefit analysis (not to mention, the market for transportation itself) hopelessly out of wack.

 

Seriously, read "The Power Broker" if ever you get the chance. Robert Moses is an incredible, if heavily flawed, figure. He proposed, in the early 20s, a metropolitan parkway system, this being a time when such an idea was unheard of. He managed to leverage the cash flow from toll receipts on bridges and parkways to finance new, larger projects; thus, against all odds, he started building his parkway system. Of course, as every new bridge, parkway, etc. was open, it was jammed within a month with no discernible slackening of traffic on the other parts of the system. The solution, of course, was to build even more bridges and parkways; predictably, this didn't change a thing.

 

With the advent of the interstate era, and the funding it provided, Moses essentially imposed on the city another metropolitan highway system. You can see the results today next time you're in New York...

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If a new road is opened (completion of the 30 or the 25), new drivers/truckers are lured from, say, passenger and freight rail systems.

 

In this case it does not apply. highway 30 is being completed so truckers can GO AROUND THE ISLAND of Montreal. This would allow them to avoid taking the bridges and then The Met/T-Can (which is continually gridlocked). This would be a good thing for traffic flows on the island.

 

I,m well aware of examples such as the ones you mentionned. I took a couple of Urban transportation classes when I was at Concordia.

 

We studied cases of new highway construction in cities like Atlanta. Unlike Montreal, Atlanta added over 1.5 million people in the past 15 years. In the same time frame, Montreal barely added 600,000.

 

Seriously, read "The Power Broker" if ever you get the chance.

 

I will, thanks!

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I guess my concern would be that if the beltway around the island is completed, it would only generate new trucking traffic that would otherwise be more economical to send via rail. I think if the Met every clears up in the wake of the 30 bypass opening, it would fill up soon after. Such a tiny percentage of freight (by weight) currently goes by truck that I think a new highway could become instantly congested with inter-urban transport regardless of stagnant local traffic.

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I think if the Met every clears up in the wake of the 30 bypass opening, it would fill up soon after.

 

I'm not naive enough to actually believe that with the completion of the 30, that miraculously the 40 will clear up...but it will improve a bit, which is better that leaving it the way it is today. Trucks are one of the MAJOR causes of congestion on our highways. People are scared of trucks...With fewer of them on the island, it will also help reduce the amount of Pollution on the Island.

 

Such a tiny percentage of freight (by weight) currently goes by truck that I think a new highway could become instantly congested even accounting for a stagnant population.

 

I doubt it. These trucks wouldn'T have to contend with all the tens of thousands of cars that are already on the island of Montreal.

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