Croyez-vous à l'évolutionl? Do you believe in evolution?

[Cyrus]

1. Reading books doesn't mean you have to believe in them. I don't think I can get unstuck in time, or that Big Brother really exists, even if I have read so in books. You chose to believe what you read in the Bible.

 

2. "God" might have existed under scientific terms. If "He" existed before the Big Bang, he was nothing more than what caused it. "He" wasn't an intelligent being, like humans are.

 

3. Humans have created God to their image, not the other way around.

 

4. The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

 

The thing is that the Bible offers a complete and relatively comprehensive explanation, while any scientific-based research only offers vague and uncertain theories. Red pill or blue pill

[Habsfan]

The thing is that the Bible offers a complete and relatively comprehensive explanation

 

Yes it does, but it has absolutely nothing to back it up. You choose to believe in a fairy tale!

 

Whereas with science, it is backed up with evidence and proof.

[Cataclaw]

The thing is that the Bible offers a complete and relatively comprehensive explanation, while any scientific-based research only offers vague and uncertain theories. Red pill or blue pill

 

Here's an explanation: A giant pizza created the universe in 19 days. On the 20th day the Pizza rested

 

It's a complete and comprehensive explanation. In fact it's quite simple and easy to grasp too. Does that make it "right"?

 

The theory of evolution is not "vague and uncertain" at all. It's cemented in fact and proven research.

[Cyrus]

Yes it does, but it has absolutely nothing to back it up. You choose to believe in a fairy tale!

 

Whereas with science, it is backed up with evidence and proof.

 

Who said I chose to, I clicked on the evolution on the survey

 

Evidence and proof, for what? What is truth? What about the social construction of truth, what is real, what is unreal and what is the difference

 

LOL all that stupid crap from my CEGEP humanities classes of years ago is coming back

 

Here's an explanation: A giant pizza created the universe in 19 days. On the 20th day the Pizza rested

 

It's a complete and comprehensive explanation. In fact it's quite simple and easy to grasp too. Does that make it "right"?

 

The theory of evolution is not "vague and uncertain" at all. It's cemented in fact and proven research.

 

What I meant is that it is vague and poorly defined in relation to Genesis, which says in black and white that God grabbed some sand and made a man just like that and it took seven days (incl a break) and etc, it is pretty... definite. Scientific theory by nature is only a refined hypothesis proven by evidence, and the evidence on this issue is thin or difficult to measure (as opposed to say gravity which is easily proven). The other problem is that it happened so long ago.

Modifié 11 novembre 2010 par Cyrus

[Cataclaw]

What I meant is that it is vague and poorly defined in relation to Genesis, which says in black and white that God grabbed some sand and made a man just like that and it took seven days (incl a break) and etc, it is pretty... definite. Scientific theory by nature is only a refined hypothesis proven by evidence, and the evidence on this issue is thin or difficult to measure (as opposed to say gravity which is easily proven). The other problem is that it happened so long ago.

 

Except that the evidence isn't thin or difficult to prove. Quite the contrary. There is so much evidence for evolution today that new discoveries are actually being labeled as redundant! There are countless transitional species discovered, both micro and macro evolution have been observed and studied, so many paleontological findings directly demonstrate evolution, etc.

 

It's funny that you should say that, but in reality, evolution is far far *far* more understood than gravity. We've yet to truly grasp the nature of gravity, but we fully understand how and why evolution works, and we've seen it happen and it continues to happen every day, whether you believe it or not.

[MTLskyline]

This is where I have a problem with some theists. When a theist says "God exists." like it is a statement of fact, that's simply wrong because it isn't a fact. Nobody knows for sure if god exists, no matter how strong your faith. You can believe that god exists, certainly, but there is no proof of it. Likewise, you can't say god doesn't exist, because there is no proof of that either.

It is strange though that so there are so many believers in something that atheists/agnostics claim might not even exist. The overwhelming majority of earthlings believe that there is a higher power (God, Yahweh, Allah, Buddha, Ganesh, etc.) out there.

 

What is the point of life without an afterlife? I find militant atheists to be fairly depressing people in general because they have no faith whatsoever. The only life they believe they will have is their life on earth, and nothing else. Religious people, however, believe that they will live on eternally, either in heaven or in hell.

 

It's really not like that though. First of all, humans are apes. We fall into the category of primates. Great apes are commonly regarded as non-human apes, but humans are still in the same paleontological family. Second, we know today that there are hundreds of intermediary species between the evolutionary ancestor to the human and the modern human today. Some of these species walked the earth at the same time. What holes exactly are in evolution? Evolution is actually one of the most well researched, documented, proven biological realities known the man. It's been so thoroughly documented, tested and verified by thousands of scientists the world over that it has virtually perfect acceptance by the entire scientific community.

The big hole in solely believing in evolution is that there has to have been a beginning of time. Evolution doesn't account for this. Like a running car, evolution needs an ignition.

 

 

Actually, there isn't. The exact nature of the big bang is still up in the air, that's what you might have heard, but its existence is most certainly commonly accepted.

I'm not arguing that it is the most commonly accepted theory. Although I am arguing that even many evolution-believing scientists have different hypotheses about how the universe was formed. I'm not saying I don't believe that a big bang could have occurred, I'm just saying it is still debated. That is a flaw of science. A group of scientists will take a theory and run with it.

It depends on your definition of intelligent design. Like i said earlier, the commonly accepted definition of intelligent design/creationism is that God snapped his fingers and stuff suddenly appeared. God wished it and *poof* a fully formed fish appeared.

I don't exactly think that intelligent design and creationism are interchangeable terms. A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square. Intelligent design is one strain of creationism (the young earth creationists you mentioned are another strain). People such as myself who believe in intelligent design do not argue that evolution never happened. We simply believe that an intelligent being, like God, had something to do with our creation somewhere along the process (whether that means He was just the ignition switch, or actually has a hand in making every single living being).

 

Your personal definition of intelligent design seems to be that god planned for the big bang and planned for evolution to take its course to ultimately lead to us, humans. That's not the creationism people usually think about when they discuss the term. Your definition is a more (in my opinion) intelligent one (no pun intended).

Yeah, I kind of explained above that intelligent design is a little different from some other strains of creationism.

 

Here's the problem with that. Creationism, the standard definition, is not a science. I repeat, it is not a science. To be science, something has to be rigorously tested, studied, data has to be processed, and findings have to be peer-reviewed and looked at for flaws. That's the scientific method. Creationism only requires you to "believe" and that's it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with personal faith and spirituality. I'm a spiritual person myself and I do have my own sets of beliefs. But creationism is not science and shouldn't be treated as such. That's why the scientific community is so fervently opposed to creationists who seek to elevate creationism to the same scientific standards as evolution and other scientific subjects. How can you apply the scientific method to religion when there's nothing tangible to study except the believe in a deity? Answer: you can't, which is why creationism is not a science and it should be taught in religion class, not in science class. Period.

I'm not exactly arguing that creationism is a science. I'm stating that someone isn't any less of a scientist for mentioning the possibility of intelligent design or creationism in their work. Nothing is wrong with interdisciplinary research. In fact, it is a better way at looking at things than just looking at biology.

 

And you have the absolute and unlimited freedom to believe that. I have my own beliefs too, i don't classify myself as an absolute atheist, because i do have certain unusual if quixotic beliefs. So let's respect our personal beliefs, but try to avoid one thing: promoting the idea that god exists with absolute certainty and elevating issues of faith to the level of science.

People who are religious will always say that God exists with absolute certainty. We are people have faith. It is what keeps us going. I would probably become quite a depressed individual if I didn't believe in God, or an afterlife. I'm aware it grates on the nerves of atheists, but they grate on our nerves too. Just read Habsfan's insulting and anti-religious posts and try and understand where we are coming from.

 

Regarding evolution though, evolution has been proven to exist and it continues to happen every day. Evolution is a fact. You can choose to believe it or not, but it's still a fact. It still happens. You can choose to deny the existence of gravity and claim "it's just a theory" but you'll still fall down if you jump from a cliff. Likewise, both microevolution and macroevolution occur every day. New species genetically biologically and physiologically unique and completely incompatible with each other and unable to breed have emerged in our own very lifetimes. Evolution is a fact.

I'm not saying that evolution has no merit, or that it doesn't exist. I'm just saying that evolution itself does not complete the whole puzzle. There are still some missing pieces.

[JFrosty]

We are people have faith. It is what keeps us going. I would probably become quite a depressed individual if I didn't believe in God, or an afterlife.

 

There. Religion in a nutshell. Atheists aren't depressed because they don't believe, because they do not care for an afterlife, or at least accept the face there isn't any. People who believe in religion mainly do because they're afraid of what's going to happen to them. Being fearful does not make what you believe in any truer. It just makes it valid for you, on a personal level. There is no need to try and convince people that it's true, hence why I support belief on a personal level, not on an organized one.

[acpnc]

MTLskyline, I am sorry with what I have to say, but with your constant verbal diarrhea, you prove one thing, that you have absolutly no listening capacity coupled with a real stubbornness in reciting on and on the same speech, threads after threads. I am getting tired of that insistance that you manifest in every discussion, as if everyone had to respond to your everlasting questionning and above all react to your extreme positions.

 

Everytime you get into a discussion it becomes a real vicious circle by repeating the same ideas and the same oppositions. We simply get nowhere and whatever anyone else says it goes right down the drain, as if nothing intelligent was said before you. This forum is no one's personal tribune, but an opened place for free speach and fair exchanges.

 

So by monopolising the space you drown eveything else and unfortunately your statements are rarely a step forward. I am sorry if I sound heavy and it is by no mean a personal attack. I'm just fed up of that same kind of patern that takes place constantly, everytime we start a sensitive subject.

 

So with my respect, please limit yourself and accept not to intervene everytime you disagree with someone's statement. This forum will certainly benefit from less everlasting discussions based on beliefs and convictions and more thoughtful or serious-minded opinions.

[Habsfan]

What is the point of life without an afterlife? I find militant atheists to be fairly depressing people in general because they have no faith whatsoever. The only life they believe they will have is their life on earth, and nothing else. Religious people, however, believe that they will live on eternally, either in heaven or in hell.

 

The point of life is LIFE itself. Life is EXTREMELY precious. Live your life, don't go wasting it away in the hopes that the afterlife will be better, cause you don't even know for sure there is an afterlife. I'm an atheist and I'm a very positive person. I'm a realist, but that doesn't stop me from being a positive person in general!! I know this life is the only life I'll have, so I live it to the fullest, and try to do everything I can to be as happy as I can. Whereas many people who believe in the afterlife will sleepwalk through this life in the hopes that their "second" life will be better!

 

We are people have faith. It is what keeps us going. I would probably become quite a depressed individual if I didn't believe in God, or an afterlife.

 

I've read and seen countless examples of people who used to believe in "god", who said that they finally felt like a huge weight was lifted from their shoulders once they finally accepted that there is no god. People who are finally living wonderful and productive lives today. Atheism isn't the "dark side" like soooooo many believers like to make us out to be. We are like most people, except we try to use our minds a little more. We like to use reason and logic to come to conclusions, instead of simply believe some tale in a book or what a preacher might tell us.

 

I'm aware it grates on the nerves of atheists, but they grate on our nerves too. Just read Habsfan's insulting and anti-religious posts and try and understand where we are coming from.

 

I understand that I might come off as being very aggressive, but if you were in my position, you would understand my frustration with people who simply choose to blind themselves to the mountain of evidence that clearly indicates that evolution is the truth.

 

Like I said before, If I were to assert with 100% certainty (even though I had no proof of this) that the Holocaust did not happen, that no jews were killed during the 2nd world war, would you not be irked just a little? Would it not annoy you?

 

If we were talking about politicians, and I were to say that I find politicians to be phony and moronic, would you feel offended? Probably not. Why should I be so respectful with regards to religion and the concept of "god"? Religion and "god" have been the source of countless millions of deaths! Religion and "god" have been the source of so much anger and hatred. Religion is the reason why millions of people in Africa have and spread AIDS...the church tells them that they'll go to hell if they use condoms. How can the Church justify this horrible behaviour?

 

I read this saying somewhere, and I don't remember where, but i thought it was good.

 

Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things, but it takes religion to make a good person do bad things.

 

I'm not saying that evolution has no merit, or that it doesn't exist. I'm just saying that evolution itself does not complete the whole puzzle. There are still some missing pieces.

 

You are right, evolution doesn't explain EVERYTHING, but it does explain quite a bit. The rest we will gradually discover as time goes on. But just because evolution and science can't explain everything, it doesn't mean that the answer is "god". Like I said before, that is a classic example of an argument from ignorance. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're ignorant, I'm saying that the argument is ignorant. Just because I don't understand the complexities of Quantum physics, doesn't mean that my magical pink unicorn who can fly and breath fire is responsible for it!

 

MTLskyline, you seem to be a bright person. I don't agree with most of your positions, but the fact remains you do have some good ideas. Can you honestly tell me that you don't find massive inconsistencies with the torah/bible and religion in general? Do you know that according to the bible, slavery is OK. The Bible even tells you how much to pay for a slave and how to treat that slave. Don't you find that repugnant? I ask you to be honest with yourself, and If you do have some doubts, I ask you to read more about atheism and evolution. I guarantee you that it is not evil or scary and you will not feel depressed. It's OK to have doubts about stuff..."God" will not smite you if you doubt his/her existence!! ;)

 

Go to talkorigins.org , you will find the answers to most of any questions you might have on that site.

 

I recommend you read a book by David Mills which i thought was simply amazing. It's called Atheist Universe. I thought it was better than the God Delusion by R. Dawkins or God is not Great by C. Hitchens.

 

Another book that I thought was excellent was Godless: How an evangelical Preacher became one of America's leading Atheists.

 

Both books will give you a different perspective and neither one of them is very "aggressive".

[Habsfan]

A must-watch series on evolution vs. creationism. A 15-part youtube series that starts with this video:

 

By the way, I watched and I loved all 15 "episodes" of this series by Aronra (i like this guy, I've seen him a few times on The Atheist Experience).

 

Thanks for the recommendation!