Croyez-vous à l'évolutionl? Do you believe in evolution?

[identifiant]

But if God lit the fuse for the big bang, He is still intelligent, but moreover, maybe He designed the "bang" process, maybe He designed evolution

 

What is interesting how atheists look at the Big Bang for the beginning of the Universe, but... that infinitesimally small, infinitely massive "thing", what was its history before that Bang? And how can something be infinitesimally small when it is the Universe, it is simple to imagine (sort of) when you are standing outside of it, but you can't, it's the Universe. Maybe it is infinitesimally small right now and we just can't see it

 

It doesn't quite explain the whole story... for example the people who think life on Earth came from aliens... OK, but where did the aliens come from? :rotfl:

 

Similarly, where did god come from?

The answer is simple, no one knows how this whole thing started (if it even had a beginning).

[MTLskyline]

Well we know where the single "creationist" vote came from

What can I say? I'm a contrarian. The accepted wisdom in most liberal democracies is evolution. I believe there is a spot for reasonable debate on the subject without people getting too worked up.

MTLskyline: You can't believe in evolution and intelligent design at the same time. Intelligent design is by definition the rejection of evolution and the belief that life was poofed into existence by a god.

 

If you believe, on the other hand, that a god initiated the big bang and everything that followed originated and evolved from that big bang, that isn't intelligent design. That's a very different idea altogether.

I was raised as a church-going Christian, and taught stories out of the bible from a very young age. In fact, I was aware of the theory of creation long before I was ever aware of the theory of evolution. I first found out about evolution from an atheist friend. He seemed almost outright hostile to my views.

 

Anyone who has ever read the Bible is aware that God created the universe and everything in it. However, I believe there is some room for interpretation. God did indeed create everything. In the case of humans, he started off with apes, then he made neanderthals and finally humans. His work evolved. This is both creation and evolution at the same time. And it doesn't run contrary to religious or scientific views. The religious agreed that God created the universe, and the scientific agree that things evolved. Each theory has a few holes on its own, but they complement each other well.

 

You can be religious and still accept evolution and the big bang.

 

However, you can't be a creationist and accept evolution at the same time.

Hold on, one minute. The Big Bang is a hypothesis. There is still a lot of disagreement in the scientific community about whether the Big Bang actually occurred.

 

I don't see how believing in intelligent design and evolution is mutually exclusive.

 

Although you can't be religious and deny God's role in the creation of life and the universe!

 

MTLskyline: that Ben Stein movie has been repeatedly debunked and scrutinzed from top to bottom. It's essentially devoid of any facts promoting creation. Why is this so? Because you cannot prove creationism. It's a fantasy! Even the official position of the Catholic Church itself and the Pope himself is that creationism is false!

The Ben Stein movie wasn't about proving the existence of creationism. It was about proving that the scientific/academic community is out to destroy the lives and careers of people who believe that intelligent design might have played a role in the development of the universe. What happened to academic freedom?

 

Of course you can't prove creationism (or the existence of God). You would have to die first! It is impossible. Not being a Catholic, I do not feel bound by the position of the Catholic church. The position of most Protestants is that God did play a role (large or small) in our creation!

[Cyrus]

Similarly, where did god come from?

The answer is simple, no one knows how this whole thing started (if it even had a beginning).

 

OK, but God is supposed to be all powerful, maybe He created himself from an infinitesimally small arrangement of atoms This is a game that can be played all day

[Cataclaw]

But if God lit the fuse for the big bang, He is still intelligent, but moreover, maybe He designed the "bang" process, maybe He designed evolution

 

This is a perfectly reasonable viewpoint in my opinion. It accepts and respects science, but keeps a door open for spirituality. Though i may not fully take on the same position, I have to say this a very sensible approach to looking all these difficult questions!

 

before [/i]that Bang?

 

Well, it's something of a paradox. There is no "before" the big bang because time didn't exist before the big bang. The very concept of "before" or "after" didn't exist before the first instant of the big bang. We tend to think of everything in linear terms, but we have to expand our focus to properly look at the universe in its infancy. This gets quite complicated but there is a wealth of information online if the subject interests you. I can point you to some interesting youtube links too, lectures by famed cosmologists.

 

 

Anyone who has ever read the Bible is aware that God created the universe and everything in it. However, I believe there is some room for interpretation. God did indeed create everything.

 

This is where I have a problem with some theists. When a theist says "God exists." like it is a statement of fact, that's simply wrong because it isn't a fact. Nobody knows for sure if god exists, no matter how strong your faith. You can believe that god exists, certainly, but there is no proof of it. Likewise, you can't say god doesn't exist, because there is no proof of that either.

 

 

In the case of humans, he started off with apes, then he made neanderthals and finally humans. His work evolved. This is both creation and evolution at the same time. And it doesn't run contrary to religious or scientific views. The religious agreed that God created the universe, and the scientific agree that things evolved. Each theory has a few holes on its own, but they complement each other well.

 

It's really not like that though. First of all, humans are apes. We fall into the category of primates. Great apes are commonly regarded as non-human apes, but humans are still in the same paleontological family. Second, we know today that there are hundreds of intermediary species between the evolutionary ancestor to the human and the modern human today. Some of these species walked the earth at the same time. What holes exactly are in evolution? Evolution is actually one of the most well researched, documented, proven biological realities known the man. It's been so thoroughly documented, tested and verified by thousands of scientists the world over that it has virtually perfect acceptance by the entire scientific community.

 

Hold on, one minute. The Big Bang is a hypothesis. There is still a lot of disagreement in the scientific community about whether the Big Bang actually occurred.

 

Actually, there isn't. The exact nature of the big bang is still up in the air, that's what you might have heard, but its existence is most certainly commonly accepted.

 

I don't see how believing in intelligent design and evolution is mutually exclusive.

Although you can't be religious and deny God's role in the creation of life and the universe!

 

It depends on your definition of intelligent design. Like i said earlier, the commonly accepted definition of intelligent design/creationism is that God snapped his fingers and stuff suddenly appeared. God wished it and *poof* a fully formed fish appeared.

 

Your personal definition of intelligent design seems to be that god planned for the big bang and planned for evolution to take its course to ultimately lead to us, humans. That's not the creationism people usually think about when they discuss the term. Your definition is a more (in my opinion) intelligent one (no pun intended).

 

 

 

The Ben Stein movie wasn't about proving the existence of creationism. It was about proving that the scientific/academic community is out to destroy the lives and careers of people who believe that intelligent design might have played a role in the development of the universe. What happened to academic freedom?

 

Here's the problem with that. Creationism, the standard definition, is not a science. I repeat, it is not a science. To be science, something has to be rigorously tested, studied, data has to be processed, and findings have to be peer-reviewed and looked at for flaws. That's the scientific method. Creationism only requires you to "believe" and that's it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with personal faith and spirituality. I'm a spiritual person myself and I do have my own sets of beliefs. But creationism is not science and shouldn't be treated as such. That's why the scientific community is so fervently opposed to creationists who seek to elevate creationism to the same scientific standards as evolution and other scientific subjects. How can you apply the scientific method to religion when there's nothing tangible to study except the believe in a deity? Answer: you can't, which is why creationism is not a science and it should be taught in religion class, not in science class. Period.

 

 

Of course you can't prove creationism (or the existence of God). You would have to die first! It is impossible. Not being a Catholic, I do not feel bound by the position of the Catholic church. The position of most Protestants is that God did play a role (large or small) in our creation!

 

And you have the absolute and unlimited freedom to believe that. I have my own beliefs too, i don't classify myself as an absolute atheist, because i do have certain unusual if quixotic beliefs. So let's respect our personal beliefs, but try to avoid one thing: promoting the idea that god exists with absolute certainty and elevating issues of faith to the level of science.

 

Regarding evolution though, evolution has been proven to exist and it continues to happen every day. Evolution is a fact. You can choose to believe it or not, but it's still a fact. It still happens. You can choose to deny the existence of gravity and claim "it's just a theory" but you'll still fall down if you jump from a cliff. Likewise, both microevolution and macroevolution occur every day. New species genetically biologically and physiologically unique and completely incompatible with each other and unable to breed have emerged in our own very lifetimes. Evolution is a fact.

Modifié 11 novembre 2010 par Cataclaw

[JCC-Fromthere]

I was raised as a church-going Christian, and taught stories out of the bible from a very young age. In fact, I was aware of the theory of creation long before I was ever aware of the theory of evolution. I first found out about evolution from an atheist friend. He seemed almost outright hostile to my views.

 

As I said before, from a purely technical point of view, creation cannot be a theory as it cannot be disproven; it is faith, nothing more.

 

Bonus question for you: as god is omnipotent, can he create a stone that he cannot lift? (just teasing)

[Habsfan]

The universe didn't create itself. Perhaps what followed was evolution, but it all began with INTELLIGENT DESIGN.

 

This is a perfect example of an argument from ignorance. Just because science doesn't have a 100% accurate answer to this question, in no way does it mean that "god" created the universe. There is absolutely NO evidence that "god" even exists, and even less evidence that an omnipotent creator made the universe.

 

More and more every decade, Science is crushing religious dogma/lies with the truth. Every year we learn something new thanks to science. What useful thing has Religion taught us that was new in the past 100 years???

 

500 years ago, thunder and Lightning were "God" showing how angry he was. Now we know better, we aren't as ignorant as we used to be.

 

150 years ago, men believed we were created in the image of "god", now we know we come from a common ancestor that we share with the great apes. We aren't as ignorant as we used to be.

 

Today, we KNOW that there is absolutely no evidence for the existance of a "god". Believing in a "god" is like telling yourself: "I choose to remain blind and ignorant. I do not want to know or understand the truth of how our world functions or what comes after we die because not knowing scares me!" That is why i have so much pity for religious people, they purposefully blind themselves to the truth.

 

I think this says it all: Faith is the belief in the absence of EVIDENCE

[Habsfan]

What can I say? I'm a contrarian. The accepted wisdom in most liberal democracies is evolution. I believe there is a spot for reasonable debate on the subject without people getting too worked up.

 

All right then. What If I were to tell you that I am a contrarian as well. I assert that no jews were killed during the 2nd world war. That the holocaust never happenned! Do you still believe there is a spot for reasonable debate even though I have absolutely NO EVIDENCE to back up my assertion?

 

This is where I have a problem with some theists. When a theist says "God exists." like it is a statement of fact, that's simply wrong because it isn't a fact. Nobody knows for sure if god exists, no matter how strong your faith. You can believe that god exists, certainly, but there is no proof of it. Likewise, you can't say god doesn't exist, because there is no proof of that either.

 

Actually yes you can. The burden of proof is always on the person who asserts something. Being an atheist, simply means you reject the notion of a "god", because there is no proof or evidence for it. Atheist don't "believe" in something. We don't have dogma's, holy days, Popes or Archbishops or any other inventions like the religions do.

 

If I assert that I believe in Pink Unicorns who can breath fire and who can fly, would you be willing to participate in a serious debate with me? Of course not, cause that is just silly. There has never been any proof for a pink unicorn who breaths fire and can fly. It has never existed and it most likely never will. Until the day that there is verifiable proof of this unicorn, you would be justified in thinking that I am crazy because i believe in this pink unicorn.

 

Regarding evolution though, evolution has been proven to exist and it continues to happen every day. Evolution is a fact. You can choose to believe it or not, but it's still a fact. It still happens. You can choose to deny the existence of gravity and claim "it's just a theory" but you'll still fall down if you jump from a cliff. Likewise, both microevolution and macroevolution occur every day. New species genetically biologically and physiologically unique and completely incompatible with each other and unable to breed have emerged in our own very lifetimes. Evolution is a fact.

 

Bravo my young padawan! ;) You did a masterful job of explaining that. I don't think any of us could have said it better than you did!

Modifié 11 novembre 2010 par Habsfan

[Cyrus]

More and more every decade, Science is crushing religious dogma/lies with the truth. Every year we learn something new thanks to science. What useful thing has Religion taught us that was new in the past 100 years???

 

 

Well nothing because it taught us an answer to everything, 2000 years ago

[acpnc]

La question de l'existence d'un dieu est incontournable dans l'idée du créationnisme, elle provient du questionnement fort respectable de l'origine du monde et par surcroit notre propre existence. Pendant longtemps on a effectivement eu besoin de la "création" d'un dieu pour répondre à des questions qui dépassaient notre entendement et notre compréhension de l'univers.

 

On a donc créé l'anthropocentrisme qui survit encore aujourd'hui dans la plupart des religions en affirmant préalablement que dieu existe, et que l'Homme a été créé à son image. Cependant quand on analyse bien la question on constate que c'est plutôt le contraire qui prévaut: l'Homme existe et il a créé dieu à son image.

 

On peut dire sans risquer de se tromper que la question de l'existence d'un dieu n'est apparue que quand la conscience de l'Homme s'est suffisamment développée pour percevoir son existence propre et séparée du monde qui l'entoure, grâce à un cerveau hypertrophié en comparaison aux autres espèces. C'est la mort, sa propre disparition d'un monde qui lui survit qui a été le moteur de cette recherche et réflexion sur son monde, son origine et l'univers en général.

 

Naissait alors la spiritualité, une nouvelle notion de conscience qui ne relevait plus de sa survie matérielle mais plutôt de sa survie tout court. En effet ces questions n'avaient aucun rapport avec ses besoins physiques et il pouvait très bien vivre sans elles. Mais la conscience a horreur du vide et à mesure que le questionnement grandissait le physique faisait de plus en plus une place au métaphysique, des notions abstraites qui lentement elles aussi évoluaient (comme tout le reste) vers des questions et des réponses plus pointues.

 

L'idée d'une ou plusieurs consciences supérieures qui dirigent tout est donc apparue naturellement. C'est une étape importante dans la compréhension du monde et bien qu'elle ne réponde pas directement aux questions existentielles, elles soulageaient de l'ignorance. Elles ont eu au passage l'avantage de créer des codes de conduites qui ont amenés à leur tour l'apparition des différentes cultures passées et présentes.

 

Aujourd'hui l'humanité vit un autre bouleversement. Après l'explosion de la conscience de l'homme primitif qui ouvrait son monde sur une sorte d'infini. L'explosion des connaissances scientifiques chamboule tous les scénarios anciens et apportent des réponses de plus en plus satisfaisantes sur ces importantes questions ancestrales.

 

La croyance en un dieu fait donc partie intégrante du développement spirituel de l'Homme, mais n'en est qu'une étape dans le processus. A mesure que les connaissances pousseront les limites du savoir, une nouvelle spiritualité apparaitra. Ce sont toutes les limites de temps et d'espace qui éventuellement feront place à la conscience pure, dans et au-delà de la matière.

 

L'humanité se libérera alors du carcan religieux et des croyances et fera la saut quantique vers ce que l'on peut appeler l'expérience de l'Eveil: la pure conscience consciente de sa propre conscience.

[JFrosty]

Anyone who has ever read the Bible is aware that God created the universe and everything in it.

 

1. Reading books doesn't mean you have to believe in them. I don't think I can get unstuck in time, or that Big Brother really exists, even if I have read so in books. You chose to believe what you read in the Bible.

 

2. "God" might have existed under scientific terms. If "He" existed before the Big Bang, he was nothing more than what caused it. "He" wasn't an intelligent being, like humans are.

 

3. Humans have created God to their image, not the other way around.

 

4. The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster