ouest-de-lîle Voie réservée (emprise de la 440) - Le Fameux Boulevard 440

[nephersir7]

il y a une heure, budgebandit a dit :

It's a collector street out of circumstance,

That's your opinion, not a fact. Fact is it was designed as a collector street when that area was developed. It was designed to funnel all the local car traffic to St-Charles and the projected north-south boulevard to the west.

il y a une heure, budgebandit a dit :

there will be a DRAMATIC increase [...] on Chateau-Pierrefonds

As I demonstrated, there likely won't be a dramatic increase on Chateau-Pierrefonds. The buses linking Pierrefonds blvd to the REM will simply take the place of the milk run routes made obsolete by the REM. There is virtually no business case for the bus frequency to be higher than the REM itself.

il y a une heure, budgebandit a dit :

As is stands there are 0 buses on Antoine-Faucon west, which is a very residential area. How can you argue that the boulevard should not connect to Gouin and Boul. Pierrefonds to limit/mitigate and disperse this traffic for local residents?

Ok, so instead of hundreds of cars clogging their street, the residents of the ~40 homes on that 400m stretch will have a bus every 3 minutes during rush hour that can bring them to the station in 2 minutes. The best bus service in the whole West Island. I'd argue that such convenient access is a very desirable thing. They'll be able to walk out their front door unscheduled and always be less than 40 minutes from downtown MTL. That can only increase their home's value on the market.

[SkahHigh]

@nephersir7 je suis d’accord avec tous tes points mais je ne vois pas pourquoi la voie réservée ne pourrait pas aller jusqu’au Boulevard Pierrefonds, ça ne pourrait qu’être positif. Ça permettrait une desserte plus efficace et fréquente de ce boulevard sans que trop de bus passent par Antoine-Faucon et Château-Pierrefonds.

Il faut tout de même penser que plusieurs lignes de bus convergeront vers le Boulevard 440, donc répartir l’offre ne serait pas une mauvaise idée.

[budgebandit]

I lived in the area for 20 years, it's not my opinion. Chateau Pierrefonds is a through street, not a collector street. Boul. Pierrefonds is a collector street, and to a lesser extent, Antoine-Faucon (and it is already way over capacity). 

You didn't demonstrate anything, you simply presented a hypothesis. And based on my experience, I will take my hypothesis over yours any day, including the fact that the buses on Antoine-Faucon west are going from 0 to 20/hr. 

Unfortunately you have the same problem as Mme Plante if you think people that live on a residential street in Pierrefonds want a bus to pass by their house every 3 minutes. They want their kids to be able to play hockey and basketball in the street and take their dogs for a quiet walk around the park. And therein lies the problem, you just don't understand what the people want, and the solution is not to force your utopic vision of things upon them. 

[nephersir7]

il y a une heure, budgebandit a dit :

 It's not my opinion. Chateau Pierrefonds is a through street, not a collector street

Chateau-Pierrefonds and Antoine-Faucon are officilaly classified in the  "Classe 5 - Collectrices" category by the city, while Blvd. Pierrefonds is in "classe 6 - Artères secondaires". It's been that way for decades.

I'll take the official facts over your alternative facts any day.

Citation

Unfortunately you have the same problem as Mme Plante if you think people that live on a residential street in Pierrefonds want a bus to pass by their house every 3 minutes. They want their kids to be able to play hockey and basketball in the street and take their dogs for a quiet walk around the park.

They should have known that Antoine-Faucon East would not remain a cul-de-sac forever. It always was projected to be extended and be used by hundreds of vehicles/hour, even if the urban boulevard is built all the way up to Gouin.

here's the traffic study if you don't believe me: 
http://ocpm.qc.ca/sites/ocpm.qc.ca/files/pdf/P85/3.19.1_modelisation_mesoscopique_du_boulevard_440_1.pdf

Citation

And therein lies the problem, you just don't understand what the people want,

You mean that when West Islanders complain about being underserved by transit, they don't actually want it to improve?

In that case, don't blame me for finding it hard to understand what you guys really want.

 

[SkahHigh]

Il y a 2 heures, budgebandit a dit :

Unfortunately you have the same problem as Mme Plante if you think people that live on a residential street in Pierrefonds want a bus to pass by their house every 3 minutes. They want their kids to be able to play hockey and basketball in the street and take their dogs for a quiet walk around the park. And therein lies the problem, you just don't understand what the people want, and the solution is not to force your utopic vision of things upon them. 

I don’t think you know much about Nephersir7’s vision or opinion.

Since he’s already shown you that Antoine-Faucon and Château-Pierrefonds are classified as « artères collectrices », do you really think kids should be able to play hockey on them? I didn’t see anyone play hockey on any secondary roads (collector) or boulevards when I was growing up in the suburbs. As for walking their dogs, I don’t see how it really stops people from going around the block or to the park, nobody is removing sidewalks here... 

You are obviously very sentimental about this debate and I don’t blame you, as you live in the area and have for a while, but I believe things are way overblown here. When you have to bring up street hockey and dog walks to justify building an urban boulevard instead of a bus-only artery, the debate becomes more anecdotal than anything, with all due respect.

So far, all I’ve heard from West Islanders is how buses and bikes are fine, but still they need more space for their cars. How a new boulevard with direct access to a metro station should be built to alleviate congestion in the area (what?), how a bus-only boulevard will increase congestion in quiet residential streets (what?) or how we simply do not get West Islanders because we are some city folks who live in perpendicular street grids with buses at our doors.

Guess what... Nephersir7 grew up in the suburbs. Not in the West Island, but with the same old residential streets with no sidewalks and poor bus service, where having a car is a must. He knows as much as anyone on this forum what the reality is in suburbia and he has experienced more than his fair share of long transit trips. He also has an extended knowledge of Montreal as a city and Montreal’s transit in general.

I’d like to see the people complaining about the Boulevard 440 actually come up with explanations as to how a new all-purpose boulevard would not add pressure to the existing road network? Or to see some actually calculate some traffic flows or draw up traffic maps like Nephersir7 has done to further illustrate their point? Because the « you just don’t understand the West Island » argument doesn’t cut it. Let’s stop riding in circles here.

[GDS]

1 hour ago, SkahHigh said:

So far, all I’ve heard from West Islanders is how buses and bikes are fine, but they need more space for their cars. How a new boulevard with direct access to a metro station should be built to alleviate congestion (what?), how a bus-only boulevard will increase congestion in quiet residential streets (what?) or how we simply do not get West Islanders because we are some city folks who live in perpendicular street grids with buses at our doors.

By creating a bus only boulevard and reducing parking from planned 1500 spaces to 100, residents are legitimately concerned that people will choose to park in the areas around the bus lane and walk to a bus stop on the reserved lane. This is exactly what was taking place in Brossard till the Loblaws closed and they were able to use its parking lot. I now live in the N section, and there are 6-7 cars that drive to my stop to get on the bus, and Brossard has 4000 parking spots. There is no study or analysis to forecast what might happen in the residential area around the new road, its an arbitrary whim decision, that cannot be defended because saying don't worry that won't happen currently rings hollow.

1 hour ago, SkahHigh said:

I’d like to see the people complaining about the Boulevard 440 actually come up with explanations as to how a new all-purpose boulevard would not add pressure to the existing networks? Or to see some actually calculate some traffic flows or draw up traffic maps like Nephersir7 has done to further illustrate his point? Because the « you just don’t understand the West Island » argument doesn’t cut it at this point. 

All the studies demonstrated this. The one that Nephersir7 quotes clearly demonstrates the alleviation of traffic on St-Charles. The conclusion of that documents states that a North South access is critical. It is true that all the studies work of the zoning and density priorities identified by the city master plan, which look to add 5000 homes in that sector. So the studies assume an increase of 7000 vehicles, deepening the need for  a boulevard. Without that development, the increase is mitigated, but we have no idea how existing residents will react/adapt.

This memorandum is even more relevant, because it highlights the larger issues.

http://ocpm.qc.ca/sites/ocpm.qc.ca/files/pdf/P85/3.1_pierrefonds-ouest-document_dinformation.pdf

Like how to create a protected area of 181 hectares while also allowing Pierrefonds to continue to grow with a development zone of 185 hectares. That entire development zone is now negated. Again, with no study or analysis of any kind. The principles outlines in this document seem totally legitimate for discussion and transparency, but have scuttled and decided upon in a closed door fashion that completely sidelined that actual residents of the area and ignored almost every previous public consultation and study (I found one that says scrap everything - http://www.greencoalitionverte.ca/documents/Rapport Rajaonson.pdf)

Principe 1 : Préservation d’un corridor écologique viable et d’une grande biodiversité

Principe 2 : Aménagement des noues

Principe 3 : Intégration de l’agriculture urbaine

Principe 4 : Protection du parcours riverain du boulevard Gouin Ouest

Principe 5 : Atteinte d’une densité et d’une diversité résidentielles viables

Principe 6 : Aménagement d’un noyau multifonctionnel dynamique et accessible

Principe 7 : Mise en réseau des parcs et espaces verts

Principe 8 : Création d’un réseau viaire efficace et convivial

Principe 9 : Qualité du domaine public

Principe 10 : Développement d’une architecture exemplaire et évocatrice

Principe 11 : Lutte aux îlots de chaleur

Principe 12 : Gestion écologique des eaux pluviales

Now in all likelyhood these elements will be studied now, but studied against a fait accompli rather than an options analysis that looks for an equitable and viable balance.

[Né entre les rapides]

Pour un court instant, j'aimerais examiner le cas de cet embranchement «ouest» du REM sous un autre angle, soit: son utilité pour les résidents d'autres secteurs de l'Île de Montréal et au-delà, et dont l'emploi est situé dans l'Ouest-de-l'Île.  A l'heure actuelle, il appert qu'ils utilisent en grande majorité leur automobile pour effectuer le trajet.  L'impact ne se fait pas ressentir uniquement  (ou même principalement) dans l'Ouest-de-l'Île sur l'A-40.  Par exemple, ceux qui partent de l'est et du centre de Montréal commencent leurs trajets en encombrant la Métropolitaine  (je pourrais y aller avec plus de détails, mais ceci devrait suffire).  Et à la pointe de l'après-midi, le même phénomène se produit en sens inverse.  Le REM pourrait s'avérer une alternative intéressante pour ceux qui s'y «connecteraient» à partir du métro ou du Train de l'Est, à condition que le service d'autobus dans l'ouest puisse les amener efficacement à leur destination finale matinale.  Compte tenu de la présence de nombreux emplois le long de la Transcanadienne, j'y vois un potentiel (de déplacements à contre-courant) bien plus intéressant que ce qu'on pourrait espérer d'autres embranchements comme celui qui se termine à Deux-Montagnes.

 

[bob]

I’ve often wondered, do suburbs naturally attract perpetually angry types, or does the built form make people that way?

[p_xavier]

3 minutes ago, bob said:

I’ve often wondered, do suburbs naturally attract perpetually angry types, or does the built form make people that way?

Je me suis toujours demandé cette question également. Je dirais le deuxième.

[montreal67]

13 minutes ago, p_xavier said:

Je me suis toujours demandé cette question également. Je dirais le deuxième.

Définitivement le deuxième. Aucune forme bâtie ne suscite plus l'individualisme et l'allergie au changement que du bon vieux tissu suburbain (comme plusieurs ici, j'en suis issu). Les drastiques règlements de zonage que l'on retrouve dans les banlieues unifamiliales n'ont fait qu'opérationnaliser ce sentiment et lui donner force de loi.