Quebec Tries to Say Au Revoir to ‘Hi,’ and Hello to ‘Bonjour’

[IluvMTL]

This story was published in The New York Times and is read across the globe. That is why it is posted in the OUTSIDE POINT OF VIEW section.  

If it is printed in such a prestigious and well-respected paper, then we should assume that it is of interest to their readers, otherwise it wouldn't be printed. There is lots of competition for stories to make it to the page. That is why we should be a little concerned by this and other 'pastagate' stories that are printed about this province.  People don't just read the story, they understand and embellish it on a personal level. It is even exagerated. Errors or facts are not reprinted or read. It just sticks and adds on to the last 'false facts' or impression they have about us. When you are not allowed to say HI (how they understand it) , it kind of sounds hostile...And this kind of thing tends to have  a cumulative effect, and that is where these perceptions can have negative effects/results in some cases.

The question here should not be whether we should allow or disallow the use of an English word in a greeting in a commercial space. (I agree that it is not necessary to say Hi). What I find more important is the matter of perception to outsiders who read this story about how it was debated and passed in the National Assembly.  This is how the English speaking continent and other countries view this issue. They don't live here, they don't know the history, they just read this and find it ridculous that we can't say 'Hi'.  After all, they think everybody 'speaks American'. It is their point of view, but there are a lot of them and it does reflect on us. The Americans certainly have their issues, and much more serious than this one. But when it comes down to visiting, or opening a business in Quebec vs another province, this will affect some peoples' decisions. Personally I am embarassed by this article and the fact that our parliament debatted it at all.

[mont royal]

33 minutes ago, ConcordiaSalus said:

Ousb. Le français doit demeurer la langue prépondérante à Montréal mais ce vieil exemple de "est-ce qu'à Toronto ont fait ci ou ça en anglais" est erroné et malhonnête. 

Je suis désolé de faire de la peine au Québécois mais les anglais sont débarqués à Montréal fin années 1700 (pensons au Molson). Il y eu ensuite une arrivée massive d'écossais et irlandais. Regarde un peu le drapeau de Montréal..... À un point tel que Montréal dans les années 1800 est devenue majoritairement anglophone. Montréal s'est re-francisé avec l'arrivée massive de canadiens français venant combler des emplois industriels/manufacturiers. Sans tout ce brou-haha migratoire, Montréal serait encore 100% francophone mais serait plus petite que Québec. Je ne veux pas débattre de si c'est bon ou mauvais mais la vérité c'est qu'il y a une longue histoire anglophone dans Montréal qui ne trouve aucune analogie inverse dans les villes anglophones. Il n'y as jamais eu d'arrivée massive de francophones à Toronto. Voila pourquoi Toronto ne se casse pas la tête avec le français. Montréal est une toute autre histoire. Le parlement Canadien a originalement été établit à Montréal. C'est tout dire de la présence anglaise dans la ville. Encore, je ne veux pas entrer dans un débat de méchants vs gentils ou de frotter du sel sur vieilles plaies mais juste dire que le débat existe à Montréal en grande partie à cause de son histoire.

To complement your historical perspective, it is important to include the fact that French language instruction was banned in Ontario, New Brunswick, and Manitoba for a full generation, Just enough to make sure that bilingualism never really reared its head. This is classic cultural genocide and it worked,. The once powerful francophone praire community is virtually dead. In Ontario, it is on life support. Only in New Brunswick is there a chance of survival and that will be a very tough fight.

Given that history, and more of course, (think Lord Durham) I can only congratulate Quebecers on their vigilance,  determination and courage to do whatever it takes to protect their identity.  

[IluvMTL]

The Globe weighs in

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/globe-editorial-taking-the-hi-out-of-bonjour-hi-wont-save-the-french-language/article37151480/

EDITORIAL

Globe editorial: Taking the ‘hi’ out of ‘bonjour-hi’ won’t save the French language

 

PUBLISHED NOVEMBER 30, 2017UPDATED NOVEMBER 30, 2017

Political manna can assume many guises.

The sovereigntist Parti Québécois's inexorable downward spiral is amply documented by polls, but a single census data point has brought it the opportunity to bust out a go-to move: performative stoking of language anxiety on the backs of les anglais.

That's right – the scourge that is the universal Montreal retail-industry greeting of "bonjour-hi" must be killed with fire, its ashes buried in lye and the location forgotten.

 

Perfect. Which foul colloquialism shall be suivant-next?

The impetus for this four-ring circus of inanity is a Statistics Canada finding on the proportion of primarily French-speaking workplaces in Quebec, which dropped from slightly above to just below 80 per cent from 2006 to 2016.

 

The decline is largely a Montreal phenomenon. It is also accompanied by a similar increase in the use of French in multilingual workplaces.

Thus, the statistics can be read as proof of dangerous slippage; or, more benignly, as Quebec companies looking outward to English-speaking clientele amid a tightening embrace of French by anglophones and allophones.

Three guesses as to which interpretation rapidly submerging PQ Leader Jean-François Lisée has grabbed onto.

So, the inevitable: a unanimous, PQ-sponsored National Assembly resolution calling on shops to stick with "bonjour" and cut out the nasty English bit.

There are valid and important reasons behind Quebec's commitment to safeguard the French language.

 

Using political street theatre to stigmatize public utterances of English in a cosmopolitan, internationally celebrated city, however, is unserious and of highly dubious value.

Meaningfully protecting French requires tackling actual challenges, such as getting immigrants to live and work in French, and nurturing the cultural attachments of children who have access to limitless and borderless choices in music, literature, television and film.

That's hard, complicated work, and the PQ has a history of failing at it.

Also, it takes a while to show up in the polling.

[ConcordiaSalus]

il y a une heure, mont royal a dit :

To complement your historical perspective, it is important to include the fact that French language instruction was banned in Ontario, New Brunswick, and Manitoba for a full generation, Just enough to make sure that bilingualism never really reared its head. This is classic cultural genocide and it worked,. The once powerful francophone praire community is virtually dead. In Ontario, it is on life support. Only in New Brunswick is there a chance of survival and that will be a very tough fight.

Given that history, and more of course, (think Lord Durham) I can only congratulate Quebecers on their vigilance,  determination and courage to do whatever it takes to protect their identity.  

You are right. I'm fully aware of that and the fact that the english are part of Montreal's history does not invalidate the fight of french speakers for preservation of the language in the city.

The one thing that the article points out, and I think it is 100% right, is that the english being spoken in Montreal today is NOT the english of the old english stock that once lived in Montreal, its the english of globalization brought to you buy youtube, facebook, instagram etc. and in today's internet world, ignoring english would be akin to commercial suicide. That's what we have to contend with. Using the english we need without allowing it to swallow up Montreal. What is the answer? I'm not sure but the use by the PQ of this topic as firewood is certainly not the way to go.

Modifié 6 décembre 2017 par ConcordiaSalus
typo

[IluvMTL]

The BBC report, including a video about immigration  (see the link) they recorded called  Where speaking English is a problem.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42200730

Canada province urges shopkeepers to stop saying 'Bonjour-Hi'

• 1 December 2017

• Share this with Facebook
•  
• Share this with Twitter
•  
• Share this with Messenger
•  
• Share this with Email
•  
• Share

 

Image copyrightAFP Image captionA bakery in Montreal

The unofficial greeting in the bilingual Canadian city of Montreal has long been a friendly "Bonjour, Hi!"

But that standard is no more since a motion mandating store clerks to greet customers only in French was passed in Quebec's provincial legislature.

The move reaffirms French as the primary language in the province, where use of English can be controversial.

The motion - which is not a law - was passed unanimously, but the province's premier called the debate "ridiculous".

Introduced by the fiercely Francophile Parti Quebecois, the motion "invites all businesses and workers who enter into contact with local and international clients to welcome them warmly with the word 'bonjour'".

 

"It's about being original and being ourselves, and being ourselves is a major Francophone city with an Anglophone community," said PQ house leader Pascal Bérubé.

Rebelling against Quebec's 'language police'

"First thing you have to say, I think, is 'bonjour.' It's about respect, it's easy to understand."

Premier Philippe Couillard, a Liberal, objected to the original wording of the motion, which called the inclusion of "Hi" in greetings "an irritant". He accused the PQ of trying to fan the flames of language war and stoke division in the province.

He said the whole debate was "ridiculous", but agreed to vote in favour of the motion once the word "irritant" was removed.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42200730

Media caption Where speaking English is a problem

Many in Quebec see their French identity as being under threat. It is the only Canadian province where French is the sole official language.

However, there are also sizeable Anglophone communities within Quebec, especially in the cosmopolitan hub of Montreal.

The place that banned the term grilled cheese and cocktail

The Office quebecois de la langue francaise (OQLF) oversees the preservation of the French language in the province - sometimes at the expense of commonly used words.

In 2013, an Italian restaurant came under pressure to remove "pasta" from its menu because it is not a French word.

In 2016, a restaurant called La Mama Grilled Cheese in Quebec City received a letter from the language agency chastising them for their Anglicism.

This year, the language watchdog quietly loosened some of its restrictions, allowing words like "grilled cheese", "cocktail" and "drag queen" back into the lexicon.

[ConcordiaSalus]

il y a 2 minutes, IluvMTL a dit :

The BBC report, including a video they recorded called  Where speaking English is a problem.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42200730

Canada province urges shopkeepers to stop saying 'Bonjour-Hi'

• 1 December 2017

• Share this with Facebook
•  
• Share this with Twitter
•  
• Share this with Messenger
•  
• Share this with Email
•  
• Share

 

Image copyrightAFP Image captionA bakery in Montreal

The unofficial greeting in the bilingual Canadian city of Montreal has long been a friendly "Bonjour, Hi!"

But that standard is no more since a motion mandating store clerks to greet customers only in French was passed in Quebec's provincial legislature.

The move reaffirms French as the primary language in the province, where use of English can be controversial.

The motion - which is not a law - was passed unanimously, but the province's premier called the debate "ridiculous".

Introduced by the fiercely Francophile Parti Quebecois, the motion "invites all businesses and workers who enter into contact with local and international clients to welcome them warmly with the word 'bonjour'".

ADVERTISEMENT

"It's about being original and being ourselves, and being ourselves is a major Francophone city with an Anglophone community," said PQ house leader Pascal Bérubé.

Rebelling against Quebec's 'language police'

"First thing you have to say, I think, is 'bonjour.' It's about respect, it's easy to understand."

Premier Philippe Couillard, a Liberal, objected to the original wording of the motion, which called the inclusion of "Hi" in greetings "an irritant". He accused the PQ of trying to fan the flames of language war and stoke division in the province.

He said the whole debate was "ridiculous", but agreed to vote in favour of the motion once the word "irritant" was removed.

 

Media captionWhere speaking English is a problem

Many in Quebec see their French identity as being under threat. It is the only Canadian province where French is the sole official language.

However, there are also sizeable Anglophone communities within Quebec, especially in the cosmopolitan hub of Montreal.

The place that banned the term grilled cheese and cocktail

The Office quebecois de la langue francaise (OQLF) oversees the preservation of the French language in the province - sometimes at the expense of commonly used words.

In 2013, an Italian restaurant came under pressure to remove "pasta" from its menu because it is not a French word.

In 2016, a restaurant called La Mama Grilled Cheese in Quebec City received a letter from the language agency chastising them for their Anglicism.

This year, the language watchdog quietly loosened some of its restrictions, allowing words like "grilled cheese", "cocktail" and "drag queen" back into the lexicon.

Man I used to go very often to that bakery on St-Viateur. Then one day I saw a report about how the Greek mafia was extorting this franco-lebanese immigrant to the point that he had to work with a bulletproof vest.

[begratto]

il y a 22 minutes, IluvMTL a dit :

Meaningfully protecting French requires tackling actual challenges, such as getting immigrants to live and work in French, and nurturing the cultural attachments of children who have access to limitless and borderless choices in music, literature, television and film.

That's hard, complicated work, and the PQ has a history of failing at it.

Là-dessus je ne suis pas d'accord avec l'éditorial du Globe.  La proportion d'enfants d'immigrants qui sont complètement intégrés à la majorité francophone a énormément augmenté depuis les années 1960/70.

[qwerty]

Quand est ce que l'on va comprendre que l'on ne peut pas légiférer sur ce genre de chose.

Bon sens qu'on a du temps à perdre

[jesseps]

For the sake of diplomacy. If all retailers across Canada chose to start saying Bonjour/Hi, would Quebec still consider it an irritant or allow it here?

[raphi]

Tout  ca mène a`al conclusion que le PQ ne doit en aucun cas prendre le pouvoir,raviver l animosité franco anglos c est tout ce qu'ils savent faire.

JFL c'est une girouette,il voulait courtiser les anglos ya pas si longtemps et la il veut plaire aux ayatollahs de la langue francaise.Vraiment tanné de ce parti, si un jour ils pouvaient disparaitre ce serait un de mes plus gros  souhaits.Si la CAQ gagne ca va plus faire de mal au PQ qu'au PLQ,l'argument qui était de battre les libéraux en votant PQ ne sera plus efficace,comme ce fut le cas pendant le primptemps érable. Heuresement qu'ils ont été minoritaires et même encore là ont tenter d'abolir les services en anglais de certaines municipalités.

10 mois c est une eternité mais à moins de gros faux pas de la CAQ et PLQ et d'un evenement qui les rendrait impopulaires,le PQ aura beaucoup de mal de revenir.Pas sur que le débat de bonjour Hi leur ait donné des munitions à part pour les morons de la langue francaise.