Limite de hauteur à 200m, pour ou contre ?

[djsteph]

Il y a 3 heures, Gabmtl a dit :

Je parlais de récemment, dans le boom de construction actuel, évidemment! Sinon, on peut aussi ajouter toutes les propositions de tours des années 60, 70 et 80, comme la Tour Bonaventura ou la Tour Montréal-Paris!

Je peux aussi être un investisseur qui, sachant la limite de hauteur, et voulant bâtir haut, je choisis une autre ville proche pour mon projet (Toronto?), sans aller sur la place publique, connaissant les précédents et la rigidité des règlements urbains.

Autrement dit, ce n'est pas parce qu'il n'y a pas de tels cas, sur la place publique, que ca veut systématiquement dire qu'il n'y aurait jamais eu de projets plus haut que 200m. Mais cette restriction qui n'a pas sa place bloque définitivement de tels projets.

Donc, je reviens à ma question... est-ce un règlement PROFITABLE pour Montréal, potentiellement?

[Unterwelten]

I have to laugh every time I see these conversations. I say "see" because I never hear anyone talk about this in real life. The only place where these conversations exist are on a handful of 'skyscraper' sites where people (99.99% male because women truly are more intelligent than men) spend hours and hours gazing at skyline photos on the internet then arguing about who has the biggest erection(s). As if it matters to anyone beyond a tiny little group of skyline fetishist dorks. 

I have friends from all over who love to visit me in MTL. It's an easy sell. They usually come for a specific event - Jazz, Formula 1, Mutek, Jardins Botanique, Igloofest, JPR/JFL, Piknic, Musée des beaux arts are popular and I had 2 groups who came specifically for Leonard Cohen at MAC. And of course, they all want to go to Vieux MTL and the Mountain. While they're here, I take them to other events that they may not be aware of - Francos, Tams, SATosphère, Darling, MURAL, Arsenal, Complêtment Cirque, Tohu, MTL en lumière, Pointe à Callière, etc., etc., etc... I've literally had to drag people to the JC for les Feux d'artifices only to have them thank me profusely afterwards. "When you said fireworks, we thought you meant.. you know.. just regular fireworks. That was fucked up!" is a variation of the usual response. My buddy from England said his summer in MTL was "magical". Another from Halifax calls it "Model City" because of our notoriously beautiful Montréalaises. A Calgarian just wanted to walk around all day, every day, everywhere and anywhere repeating "This is so cool!" wherever she went.  I took an old pal to MTL en lumière after his Hab game and he bluntly stated "Something like this could never happen in Toronto". Ditto for people I've dragged kicking and screaming to Igloofest only to have them want to go back the next night. That's a constant refrain "This would/could never happen in ____________".

To get to my point, not once, EVER, has anyone said to me "MTL is great but it would be so much better if it had an 200m+ tower." Never. EVER! Maybe I choose my friends well or maybe I simply choose to hang out with adults but this topic has never come up. Much as it has never come up in when I've visited Berlin, Prague, Amsterdam, Hamburg, Copenhagen, Paris... you never hear anyone say "This place really needs a 200m+ tower in order to make it truly interesting". Any city that does is probably so lacking in other areas that Mc Tall Towers are needed as compensation.

Keep the limit and build nice things. Create great public spaces. Build an awesome transit system. Keep the echelle humaine. Let me glimpse the mountain because its presence comforts me, it reminds me of where I am - much as the PVM phare does. It's not that I'm worried. Outside of this little nest of skyline fetishist weirdos - nobody cares about the height of our collective erection(s). If they truly did care, they'd all move to the Greatest, Most Visionary, Most Exciting, Most Ambitiousy Forward Looking City the World Has Ever Seen - Dubai, Erection City!

 

Modifié 7 juin 2018 par Unterwelten

[franktko]

il y a 22 minutes, Unterwelten a dit :

I have to laugh every time I see these conversations. I say "see" because I never hear anyone talk about this in real life. The only place where these conversations exist are on a handful of 'skyscraper' sites where people (99.99% male because women truly are more intelligent than men) spend hours and hours gazing at skyline photos on the internet then arguing about who has the biggest erection(s). As if it matters to anyone beyond a tiny little group of skyline fetishist dorks. 

I have friends from all over who love to visit me in MTL. It's an easy sell. They usually come for a specific event - Jazz, Formula 1, Mutek, Jardins Botanique, Igloofest, JPR/JFL, Piknic, Musée des beaux arts are popular and I had 2 groups who came specifically for Leonard Cohen at MAC. And of course, they all want to go to Vieux MTL and the Mountain. While they're here, I take them to other events that they may not be aware of - Francos, Tams, SATosphère, Darling, MURAL, Arsenal, Complêtment Cirque, Tohu, MTL en lumière, Pointe à Callière, etc., etc., etc... I've literally had to drag people to the JC for les Feux d'artifices only to have them thank me profusely afterwards. "When you said fireworks, we thought you meant.. you know.. just regular fireworks. That was fucked up!" is a variation of the usual response. My buddy from England said his summer in MTL was "magical". Another from Halifax calls it "Model City" because of our notoriously beautiful Montréalaises. A Calgarian just wanted to walk around all day, every day, everywhere and anywhere repeating "This is so cool!" wherever she went.  I took an old pal to MTL en lumière after his Hab game and he bluntly stated "Something like this could never happen in Toronto". Ditto for people I've dragged kicking and screaming to Igloofest only to have them want to go back the next night. That's a constant refrain "This would/could never happen in ____________".

To get to my point, not once, EVER, has anyone said to me "MTL is great but it would be so much better if it had an 200m+ tower." Never. EVER! Maybe I choose my friends well or maybe I simply choose to hang out with adults but this topic has never come up. Much as it has never come up in when I've visited Berlin, Prague, Amsterdam, Hamburg, Copenhagen, Paris... you never hear anyone say "This place really needs a 200m+ tower in order to make it truly interesting". Any city that does is probably so lacking in other areas that Mc Tall Towers are needed as compensation.

Keep the limit and build nice things. Create great public spaces. Build an awesome transit system. Keep the echelle humaine. Let me glimpse the mountain because its presence comforts me, it reminds me of where I am - much as the PVM phare does. It's not that I'm worried. Outside of this little nest of skyline fetishist weirdos - nobody cares about the height of our collective erection(s). If they truly did care, they'd all move to the Greatest, Most Visionary, Most Exciting, Most Ambitiousy Forward Looking City the World Has Ever Seen - Dubai, Erection City!

 

That comment sucked. Learn to express yourself without insulting everybody.

[Unterwelten]

il y a 6 minutes, franktko a dit :

That comment sucked. Learn to express yourself without insulting everybody.

My apologies to "everybody". All 94 of them.

[budgebandit]

@Unterwelten Just because you don't hear anyone talking about the height limit in real-life, doesn't mean that the issue isn't being discussed.... 

It's been a topic of discussion amongst developers, the city, NIMBYs etc. for a long time, so to make a statement such as this work of art: "The only place where these conversations exist are on a handful of 'skyscraper' sites where people (99.99% male because women truly are more intelligent than men) spend hours and hours gazing at skyline photos on the internet then arguing about who has the biggest erection(s). As if it matters to anyone beyond a tiny little group of skyline fetishist dorks" is categorically false. 

And so what if a handful of people that are passionnate about something want to express their opinions and give their arguments for or against? FYI, I don't recall anyone on this site ever claiming that skyscrapers are what makes Montreal a great city. We are simply proud of our city and want to see it reach higher (pun intended); skyscrapers, in most cases, are a sign of economic prosperity.

I also find this statement extremely ironic: "Maybe I choose my friends well or maybe I simply choose to hang out with adults but this topic has never come up" given the fact that I have only ever heard adults discussing the topic. 

Your condescending tone and holier than thou attitude are pitiful. An ADULT should be able to get his/her point across without having to insult people (whether that means 1 person or 10 000 is completely besides the point). 

Be better.

PS The first thing that people say when they go to Dubai, New York, Shanghai, Hong Kong is "WOW LOOK AT ALL THESE BUILDINGS" 

PPS I haven't heard anyone use the word "dork" since 2004. Good for you bud. 

Modifié 7 juin 2018 par budgebandit

[FrancSoisD]

Il y a 7 heures, franktko a dit :

L'histoire de ce projet semble indiquer qu'il n'y a jamais eu de demande à la ville pour une telle hauteur -  plutôt un promoteur qui contemplait un tel projet... ce que Gabmtl et moi disions est toujours vrai.

Je ne suivais pas les actualités de l'urbanisme à cette époque. Pourtant je mettrais ma main au feu d'avoir lu un article d'un journal où le promoteur était interviewé et mentionnait à la fois une grande déception face à cette limite de hauteur mais aussi face à la lenteur des processus bureaucratiques à la ville... (?)

[FrancSoisD]

Le 2018-06-07 à 12:32, djsteph a dit :

Je peux aussi être un investisseur qui, sachant la limite de hauteur, et voulant bâtir haut, je choisis une autre ville proche pour mon projet (Toronto?), sans aller sur la place publique, connaissant les précédents et la rigidité des règlements urbains.

[...]

Donc, je reviens à ma question... est-ce un règlement PROFITABLE pour Montréal, potentiellement?

<Parenthèse politique: ouverte> Possible que ça ait profité à Toronto, mais certes pas autant  que les craintes du milieu des affaires avant 1980 puis '95. </Parenthèse politique: fermée>

Pour la question, paradoxalement, je crois que c'est oui, ce soit profitable dans le contexte du récent boom hôtelier, du présent boom de construction principalement résidentielle, mais aussi de plus en plus commerciale (bureaux): le plan d'urbanisme consolide le centre-ville et lui donne une forme de "4e sommet" faisant écho au mont Royal, tout en protégeant plusieurs vues sur et à partir de notre précieux poumon vert.

Cependant,  alors que le centre-ville se dirige lentement vers une saturation puis un "plafond" que d'aucuns compareront à une "muraille" (y'a qu'à penser au skyline de Griffintown, puis celui qu'aura l'ouest du c-v dans 2-3 ans), je crois que la pertinence d'avoir des zones d'exclusion de cette limite de hauteur à une distance respectable du mont deviendra de plus en plus d'actualité.

Ou cela pourrait-il hypothétiquement être demeure à élaborer, mais j'entrevois la possibilité d'y réfléchir pour la pointe du havre et de futurs mini centre-ville plus en périphérie et axés sur les TC, tel que les secteur des stations de métro Galeries-d'Anjou, Longueuil, Montmorency, et potentiellement Mount Royal / Blue bonnets...

[FrancSoisD]

Il y a 3 heures, Unterwelten a dit :

I have to laugh every time I see these conversations. I say "see" because I never hear anyone talk about this in real life. The only place where these conversations exist are on a handful of 'skyscraper' sites where people (99.99% male because women truly are more intelligent than men) spend hours and hours gazing at skyline photos on the internet then arguing about who has the biggest erection(s). As if it matters to anyone beyond a tiny little group of skyline fetishist dorks. 

I have friends from all over who love to visit me in MTL. It's an easy sell. They usually come for a specific event - Jazz, Formula 1, Mutek, Jardins Botanique, Igloofest, JPR/JFL, Piknic, Musée des beaux arts are popular and I had 2 groups who came specifically for Leonard Cohen at MAC. And of course, they all want to go to Vieux MTL and the Mountain. While they're here, I take them to other events that they may not be aware of - Francos, Tams, SATosphère, Darling, MURAL, Arsenal, Complêtment Cirque, Tohu, MTL en lumière, Pointe à Callière, etc., etc., etc... I've literally had to drag people to the JC for les Feux d'artifices only to have them thank me profusely afterwards. "When you said fireworks, we thought you meant.. you know.. just regular fireworks. That was fucked up!" is a variation of the usual response. My buddy from England said his summer in MTL was "magical". Another from Halifax calls it "Model City" because of our notoriously beautiful Montréalaises. A Calgarian just wanted to walk around all day, every day, everywhere and anywhere repeating "This is so cool!" wherever she went.  I took an old pal to MTL en lumière after his Hab game and he bluntly stated "Something like this could never happen in Toronto". Ditto for people I've dragged kicking and screaming to Igloofest only to have them want to go back the next night. That's a constant refrain "This would/could never happen in ____________".

To get to my point, not once, EVER, has anyone said to me "MTL is great but it would be so much better if it had an 200m+ tower." Never. EVER! Maybe I choose my friends well or maybe I simply choose to hang out with adults but this topic has never come up. Much as it has never come up in when I've visited Berlin, Prague, Amsterdam, Hamburg, Copenhagen, Paris... you never hear anyone say "This place really needs a 200m+ tower in order to make it truly interesting". Any city that does is probably so lacking in other areas that Mc Tall Towers are needed as compensation.

Keep the limit and build nice things. Create great public spaces. Build an awesome transit system. Keep the echelle humaine. Let me glimpse the mountain because its presence comforts me, it reminds me of where I am - much as the PVM phare does. It's not that I'm worried. Outside of this little nest of skyline fetishist weirdos - nobody cares about the height of our collective erection(s). If they truly did care, they'd all move to the Greatest, Most Visionary, Most Exciting, Most Ambitiousy Forward Looking City the World Has Ever Seen - Dubai, Erection City!

@Unterwelten, parts of your comment made me smile. "women are truly more intelligent than men"? I tend to also believe so, but your perceptions and mine of what intelligence may be are just as subjective as those of the men who think women are less rational than men in general, so i won't grant too much importance to those assertions.

Your blunt and distorted depictions of forum members made me and other forum members uncomfortable, however. Many members here also oppos the skycraper love many of us love, and the discussions usually are respectfull on this forum, in spite of divergent views.

Citation

'skyscraper' sites where people (99,99% males [...]) spend hours and hours gazing at skyline photos on the internet then arguing about who has the biggest erection(s).
[...]
Outside of this little nest of skyline fetishist weirdos - nobody cares about the height of our collective erection(s).

 

Please bring your points across without the reductive generalizations in your future interventions.

Other than this "mishap", you brought back many good points, which do highlight our "not-as-American-as-the-rest-of-North-America" lovely city, from the perception of visitors. Thanks.

Enjoy your own erections thinking about our model women, LOL! ('Just kidding.)

Welcome to the forum!

[Ousb]

Lol il y a vraiment des gens qui s’inscrivent sur mtlurb et qui ne disent presque jamais rien, on les voit pas mais la seule fois qu’ils l’ouvrent c’est pour dire des conneries. C’est incroyable.. parfois se taire c’est vraiment mieux. Pleins de sujets interessants desquels discuter mais ça préfère se rabaisser à insulter les gens et à jouer au parent moralisateur. Good job

Modifié 8 juin 2018 par Ousb

[raph_niquette]

Je suis contre la limitation de hauteur à 200 mètres pour le centre-ville. Selon moi, la hauteur devrait être illimitée sur tout l'arrondissement Ville-Marie avec une loi qui ferait que les promoteurs devraient toujours faire valider leur projet en hauteur de façon à ce qu'on puisse garder un certain contrôle. On pourrait ainsi s'assurer de ne pas se retrouver avec une tour de 500 mètres éloignée de tous les autres grattes-ciels. Selon moi, Montréal, comme New-York ou Chicago pourrait atteindre son plein potentiel avec des hauts grattes-ciels. Il y aurait plus de vie dans le centre-ville, plus de choses à faire, plus de commerces, de bureaux et de résidences. Les villes modernes les plus connues du monde ont toutes des grattes-ciels alors pourquoi Montréal n'emboîte pas le pas au lieu de rester avec une limitation de hauteur qui était peut-être efficace en 1980 mais qui ne fait pas du tout l'affaire aujourd'hui.