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Discussion: Canadiens de Montréal

  1. #1031
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    mai 2007
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    Non, fini le niaisage. Je ne répondrais pas à ça, mais je répondrais à la question lancée:


    Aucun capitaine jusqu'à temps qu'un leader se démaraque parmis les joueurs.

    En attendant... des 'A' pour certains joueurs.

    Markov montre bien l'exemple, mais il est trop timide. Ce n'est pas le gars qui va faire "goaler" l'équipe dans le vestiaire! Je ne sais pas qui d'autre en ce moment.

  2. #1032
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    En passant, à ceux et celles qui lisent ce fil et se demandent "WTF! Qu'est ce qui se passe ici!"... moi et Steve_36 avons fait la paix via message privé. Vous pouvez respirer, il n'y aura pas de guerre nucléaire!


    --

    Pour en revenir au CH et le capitaine, upon further reflection... je pense que le futur capitaine pourrait être un des nouveaux, mais ça ne serait pas pour tout de suite... aucun capitaine pour 2009-2010!

  3. #1033
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    décembre 2007
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    Citation Envoyé par Cataclaw Voir le message
    Aucun capitaine jusqu'à temps qu'un leader se démaraque parmis les joueurs.

    En attendant... des 'A' pour certains joueurs.

    Markov montre bien l'exemple, mais il est trop timide. Ce n'est pas le gars qui va faire "goaler" l'équipe dans le vestiaire! Je ne sais pas qui d'autre en ce moment.
    C'est exactement ce que moi et mes cousins disions hier. Pas de Capitaine pour l'instant, c'est trop tot et il y a trop de points d'interrogations. Que des ''A'' pour un bout de temps.

    Markov (excellent joueur) mais manque de leadership
    Lapierre (futur capitaine peut-etre) mais présentement beaucoup trop jeune
    Les nouveaux.... trop nouveaux
    Et les autres ne le méritent pas non plus, à mon avis !

  4. #1034
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    mars 2007
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    Citation Envoyé par steve_36 Voir le message
    And may i ask why my statement made you react that way ? Why does it seem wrong for me to prefer quebecois french canadian players in my team especially if they grew up admiring le CH and if they are eager to play for that team ?

    When Canada plays at the Olympic or a world tournament, are you on the canadian side or, lets say, the swedish or tcheque side ?

    And if Canada, why ?
    Hey Steve_36, I prefer a WINNING team. That's the bottom line. If the habs had a team comprised of all french canadien players and we consistantly fight for the cup than I wouldn't give a shit because the bottom line is that we are winning. Unfortunately circumstances have it that we now have two Quebecers. We've had more in the past but that got us nowhere. We need to win now. If you are happy with mediocrity as long as the teanm consists of good ole boys from this province than that is your wish. Frankly I'm tired of it. We need proven players with grit, passion to wear the CH, players who would go the extra mile. I hope Bob has found the winning combo because I beleive his days as GM is numbered.

  5. #1035
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    Citation Envoyé par Ornello Mastrocola Voir le message
    Hey Steve_36, I prefer a WINNING team. That's the bottom line. If the habs had a team comprised of all french canadien players and we consistantly fight for the cup than I wouldn't give a shit because the bottom line is that we are winning. Unfortunately circumstances have it that we now have two Quebecers. We've had more in the past but that got us nowhere. We need to win now.
    I respect your opinion. If you wish to win no matter what then that's a fair choice. As for myself i prefer to win with guys i like otherwise i dont feel involved much.

    But..but, are you serious when you say we've had more quebecers in the past and it got us nowhere, seriously ?

    It got us more than 20 stanley cup and one of the best sport team in the world !!!

  6. #1036
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    mai 2007
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    Montréal
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    I think the fact we won so many stanley cups also has to do with the fact there were only 6 teams at one point, and a lot less competition.

    Not to diminish our proud accomplishments, but it's something to consider.

    No team in the NHL will ever again win 5 cups in a row, or ever catch up to Montreal in # cups won. Ever.

    (Well maybe in a century or two, you can never say never, but certainly not in our lifetimes)

  7. #1037
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    ...not only that, we had first dibs to draft a francophone player as well. That my friend help Montreal to land every top notch Quebecer. Unfortunately, we do not have that luxury any more...it's to bad because, we would probably be talking about 20 more cups...the drive to 45!!

  8. #1038
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    février 2007
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    Citation Envoyé par Ornello Mastrocola Voir le message
    ...not only that, we had first dibs to draft a francophone player as well. That my friend help Montreal to land every top notch Quebecer. Unfortunately, we do not have that luxury any more...it's to bad because, we would probably be talking about 20 more cups...the drive to 45!!

    Good point. Many Habs fans don't mention this very often, but it did make a huge difference in the 40's , 50's and 60's. Imagine If Toronto was allowed to draft the best player from Ontario at the same time as the habs were drafting the best player from Québec...I'm not so sure we'd have as many Cups!
    Daddy Likes It Dirty!
    Veni, vidi, vici!
    Faith is belief in the absence of evidence.
    GO HABS GO

  9. #1039
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    Pourquoi Gainey n'a-t-il pas joué franc jeu avec Tanguay et Beauchemin ?
    Bertrand Raymond sur le trottoir
    Dimanche, 30 août

    Durant la dernière séance de repêchage, au Centre Bell, un agent a profité d'une pause pour s'approcher de Bob Gainey et lui demander une petite faveur. L'agent, lui-même un ancien de l'organisation, voulait lui parler d'un client qui était prêt à faire des bassesses pour pouvoir jouer avec un chandail tricolore sur le dos.

    − Bob, je ne t'ai jamais rien demandé, mais Denis Gauthier meurt d'envie de jouer avec le Canadien, a-t-il glissé à l'oreille du directeur général. Crois-tu qu'il pourrait y avoir une place pour lui dans ton équipe ?

    − Au cours des prochains jours, j'aurai une réunion avec mes hommes de hockey. Nous en discuterons à ce moment-là, a répondu vaguement Gainey.

    L'agent et son joueur se croyaient justifiés d'entretenir un certain espoir... Après tout, le président Pierre Boivin s'était engagé à greffer des Québécois à l'équipe. Incapable de convaincre des athlètes francophones de revenir jouer à la maison, il avait promis d'étudier le statut de certains Québécois à travers la ligue et d'en obtenir par voie de transactions, si possible.

    Gauthier, un ex-choix de première ronde avec les Flames de Calgary, est un défenseur de 6 pi 3 po et 225 lb qui frappe pour faire mal. C'est aussi un garçon amical qui a de la classe, qui est proche du public et qu'on n'aurait pas risqué de retrouver dans des soirées désordonnées sur Saint-Laurent. À 32 ans, il continue de préconiser un style combatif, comme le confirment ses 90 minutes de pénalités l'an dernier avec les Kings.

    Le 1er juillet arrive, et l'agent est toujours sans nouvelles du Canadien. Une quinzaine de minutes après l'ouverture du marché pour les joueurs autonomes, il donne un coup de fil à Gainey qui avait déjà confirmé sa décision de biffer Francis Bouillon, Mathieu Schneider, Mathieu Dandenault et Patrice Brisebois de son personnel de défenseurs, après avoir visiblement déjà perdu Mike Komisarek.

    L'agent reprend le même refrain. Son joueur est prêt à accepter toutes sortes de compromis pour jouer à Montréal. La réponse de Gainey est plutôt sèche : « Keep calling the other clubs » (continue d'appeler les autres équipes).

    Gauthier confirme ce qui s'est passé. « J'aurais tellement voulu terminer ma carrière avec le Canadien, dit-il. L'an dernier, je touchais un salaire de 2,2 millions de dollars. J'aurais accepté 850 000 $ pour jouer à Montréal. » La réponse a été sans appel. Comme si on avait dit à son agent : « Denis Gauthier... ouach ! »

    Manque de classe

    Le Canadien a sacrifié un premier et un second choix au repêchage pour acquérir les services d'Alex Tanguay. Il faut remonter loin en arrière pour relever une transaction au cours de laquelle l'organisation a puisé à ce point dans son avenir pour consolider le présent.

    Pourtant, un an plus tard, on s'est débarrassés de ce joueur avec autant de dédain qu'on avait mis d'enthousiasme à l'arracher aux Flames de Calgary. Pourquoi ? Allez donc savoir ce qui motive Gainey et son proche conseiller Pierre Gauthier dans ce genre de décisions...

    Remarquez qu'ils ont parfaitement le droit de décider qui ils veulent dans leur équipe. C'est leur façon de faire qui étonne et qui contribue probablement à ternir une image qu'ils cherchent continuellement à renforcer. Mais à quoi bon polir son image si on se comporte avec certains joueurs comme s'ils étaient de la viande passée date ?

    Tanguay n'est pas n'importe qui dans la Ligue nationale. Il avait aussi l'avantage d'être le joueur québécois le plus talentueux de toute l'organisation. Malgré tout, on l'a laissé sécher sur la corde à linge durant plusieurs semaines en laissant croire à son agent qu'il allait éventuellement recevoir une proposition de contrat.

    La dernière fois que Gainey et Robert Sauvé ont discuté par téléphone à son sujet, le directeur général a promis à l'agent de lui revenir. Il ne l'a jamais fait. En fait, Sauvé et Tanguay n'ont jamais su officiellement que le Canadien avait coupé les ponts avec eux. Ils l'ont compris quand le retour d'appel n'est pas venu. Bête de même.

    Beauchemin : une perte

    Des fantaisistes de la rumeur folle ont lancé l'hypothèse au début de l'été que le défenseur François Beauchemin n'était pas intéressé par Montréal et qu'il se disait prêt à écouter le Canadien pour soigner son image. Rien de plus faux. Le sympathique athlète de Sorel avait le Canadien dans sa ligne de mire. Là encore, c'est le Canadien qui a levé le nez sur un produit local. Un défenseur étoile de surcroît.

    Beauchemin exigeait une entente de 4 ans à raison de 4 millions de dollars par saison. Le Canadien lui offrait 3 millions par saison pour une durée de 3 ans.

    Beauchemin est un défenseur nettement plus complet que Mike Komisarek, qui a obtenu en moyenne 4,5 millions pour 5 ans à Toronto. Je ne sais pas sur quels critères on s'est basé pour le juger, mais ce défenseur, qui aurait mis Roman Hamrlik, Josh Gorges, Ryan O'Byrne et Hal Gill dans sa petite poche, est suffisamment talentueux pour avoir été invité au camp d'évaluation de l'équipe canadienne en vue des Jeux olympiques.

    On n'a pas de mal à imaginer que si on n'avait pas donné 2,5 millions à Hal Gill, qui se déplace à la vitesse d'une borne-fontaine, on aurait eu suffisamment d'argent pour se payer Beauchemin.

    Si jamais la blessure subie par Beauchemin, qui lui a fait manquer les trois quarts de la dernière saison, a influé sur la décision de Gainey, Brian Burke, lui, n'a exigé aucun examen médical de son ancien joueur. Il n'a pas posé la moindre question à ce sujet. À titre d'ex-directeur général des Ducks d'Anaheim, il connaissait sa véritable valeur, et ça lui suffisait amplement.

    Le défenseur de 30 ans est très déçu de ce qui s'est passé. « J'aurais accepté les 3,8 millions qu'on a consentis à Jaroslav Spacek puisque c'est le montant que j'ai obtenu à Toronto », précise-t-il.

    Beauchemin, qui aurait également été fort utile en avantage numérique, exerce une présence physique sur la patinoire. Il sait parfaitement ce qu'il aurait été en mesure d'apporter au Canadien.

    « On disait que le Canadien désirait ajouter du muscle à sa formation, ajoute-t-il. On prétendait vouloir obtenir des joueurs qui frappent. Or, Paul Mara n'aime pas ça quand ça brasse, et Gill ne frappe pas beaucoup. »

    Dans son cas, Gainey a choisi encore une fois une voie d'évitement. « Le Canadien avait dit qu'il allait nous revenir avec une proposition. Or, jamais on ne nous a appelés par la suite », mentionne-t-il, sans agressivité.

    S'il fallait relever un dénominateur commun dans les cas de Gauthier, Tanguay et Beauchemin, il faudrait parler d'un manque de classe étonnant du Canadien. Je dis étonnant parce que le Canadien nous a habitués à tellement mieux sur ce plan.

    Quelle mouche a piqué Gainey ces derniers temps ? Pourquoi n'a-t-il pas tout bonnement joué franc jeu avec Tanguay et Beauchemin ? Je ne reconnais plus cet homme humain et respectueux des gens que j'ai connu comme joueur et comme homme de hockey.

    Est-il à ce point puissant au sein de l'organisation que le président Pierre Boivin doive baisser les bras et fermer les yeux sur ses agissements pour le moins bizarres qui ne font rien pour entretenir l'image que l'équipe désire projeter ?

    À quoi cela sert-il d'offrir aux joueurs un centre d'entraînement sophistiqué où ils sont traités comme on le fait nulle part ailleurs ? À quoi bon leur dérouler le tapis rouge en permanence si on traite aussi cavalièrement des athlètes (tous des Québécois dans les cas présents) qui ne se feront pas prier pour aller répandre ailleurs qu'on les a traités comme des va-nu-pieds le jour où ils ont démontré de l'intérêt pour le Canadien ?

  10. #1040
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    mars 2008
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    Montréal-Rosemont
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    Citation Envoyé par Ornello Mastrocola Voir le message
    ...not only that, we had first dibs to draft a francophone player as well. That my friend help Montreal to land every top notch Quebecer. Unfortunately, we do not have that luxury any more...it's to bad because, we would probably be talking about 20 more cups...the drive to 45!!
    As a Hab fan growing up in Onterrible, I had to listen to this crap all the time. Time to put an end to this MYTH for once and for all!! Stop believing all the bullshit you hear coming out of Toronto!!

    Only 3 players ever made it to the Habs because of this rule: Michel Plasse, Marc Tardif, Rejean Houle (no stars), and the rule was only in effect for 13 out of 36 seasons between 1936 and 1969.

    Debunking The Canadiens French Territorial Players Rights Myth

    http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...nadiens-french

    There is a popular myth, longstanding in fact, and surely perpetrated by decades of Maple Leafs frustration that the Montreal Canadiens superiority from the early 1950's to the late 1970's was due to the simple notion that they had territorial rights to the province of Quebec's two greatest hockey talents annually.

    The myth has gained ground on the factual truth in many minds based on the coincidental perceived removal of such rights and the Habs descent down to normalness since the heyday of the dynasty years.

    But the myth, hockey fans, is complete bunk!

    The small sliver of truth and fact behind the one time territorial Habs clause fails to back up the claims of those who have cried "No Fair" like whining children for years.

    I first remember heading about this when I was all of seven years old.

    The myth was cemented into young impressionable minds in hockey rinks and schoolyards Canada wide by Maple Leafs fans needing a convinient excuse in explaining their own clubs decline.

    I grew up with kids who believed it then. I know some of them as adults who still believe it today.

    The twisted yarn is so maligned, it even now includes the drafting of Guy Lafleur first overall in 1971, as well as others, as part of it's Leaf derived legend.

    If the myth were true, the Canadiens would have also snapped up Jean Ratelle, Rod Gilbert, and Gil Perreault among others. The possibilities are endless - they would have likely never lost a game, nevermind the Stanley Cup.

    Looking back on it all now, on how the mistruth spread, it's become clearer as to why it would permeate logic, given the finger pointing nature of Leafs fans, who have consistantly failed to look in their backyard to explain their failings and past inferiorities.

    It's almost as if they agreed in unison that the myth would be their battlecry, their common shield of armour in the face of defeat. One day, somewhere in time, a little light went off in someones head. I can almost see it now.

    "Well no wonder the cheaters won all them damn Cups, the Kweebeckers got the two best Frenchman every year..."

    I've long known the truth is othewise, and have long sought out a source that would explain it best, with insightful completeness and perspective.

    With much talk of Canadiens drafts in the past few days, the old territorial rights rule reared its famaliar head in chat room talk, when somebody posted a link to hockey historian and trivia expert Liam Maguire's site. As a Canadiens fan himself, Maguire has also been confronted with this myth numerous times, and sets the record straight. He has interviewed many on this very subject, including Sam Pollock, Scotty Bowman, Dick Irvin, Marcel Pronovost, Rod Gilbert, Yvan Cournoyer and numerous others.

    It seems the origin of the rule is as old as the NHL itself, going back to wartime days when the fortunes and faith of franchises fluctuated annually.

    Contrary to popular belief, the NHL did not start out as an Original Six league. Many teams came and went, existing anywhere between two or three years up to a decade, including the original Ottawa Senators.

    Not unlike today's revenue sharing programs amongst sports teams, league members back in the day, found creative ways to assist in each other in the help for financial survival. Often this was done by way of player and monetary loans, but what team owners discovered back then was that locals stars filled seats to great capacity.

    This fact was evident even in pre-NHL days, and especially true in Montreal, where a rivalry was built up to fullfill a demand for a french team to compete against the english Montreal teams of the day, the Wanderers and Maroons.

    One year after the birth of the Montreal Canadiens, known then as Le Club Athletic Canadiens, it was decided that this would become the franchise that would cater to the desires of the french speaking clientele. Slowly but surely it filled it's roster with french names and proceeded to become semi-successful on the ice, but teetering financially off it.

    Over time, the Canadiens became the only Montreal franchise remaining, outliving the Maroons and winning Stanley Cups in 1916, 1924, 1930, and 1931. It fought on through hard times and financial up and downs, and during a spell in the late 1930's, the team was on the brink of folding.

    It was around that time, that the idea came up to offer the Canadiens the exclusive rights to two players per year as a means of maintaining interest and ensuring financial success.

    To quote Liam Maguire, "(It was) decided that the Montreal Canadiens could take any two players from the province of Quebec in a special draft. There was one rider however. None of these players could have already been previously signed to a C form (confirmation form) with any other club."

    "At this time in the NHL and right through the late 60's amateur players were signed by NHL teams to C forms and then placed on their appropriate junior clubs or minor pro clubs depending on their age. The most extreme case of this was Bobby Orr. Orr signed a C form three weeks before his 12th birthday with the Boston Bruins. He was so young his parents signature was required. When he turned 14 he began playing for Boston's junior sponsored team, the Oshawa Generals. That's how Orr became a Bruin."

    "From 1936-1943 Montreal protected 14 players through this special draft. Unfortunately none of them ever played a minute in the NHL. Reason being, anybody who could tie their skates and chew gum at the same time were already long signed by other NHL teams including the Canadiens who certainly wern't going to survive solely with this rule."

    "The hope was that there would be a spark from signing a French Canadian kid, even better if he could play a bit. The thought was that this could help attendance and thereby help Montreal.

    It never did. What really helped Montreal at that time were two shrewd moves. One, a trade with the Montreal Maroons which brought them Toe Blake and two, the signing of Elmer Lach to a C form, who was from Saskatchewan by the way. He was signed after the Rangers passed on him. Lach attended their camp first."

    The root of the myth may lie in the fact that just prior to the Habs landing Blake and Lach, the Canadiens first two stars were Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde and Aurel Joliat, both owners of French sounding names. Along Georges Vezina and the Cleghorn brothers, these two succeeding hero's, who were at one time traded for one another, were important facets of the Canadiens success in the 1920' and 1930's.

    What many may not know, is that neither Lalonde or Joliat was a home grown talent. Lalonde was billingual, and was born in my hometown of Cornwall, Ontario (a great source of pride!), and Joliat was an Ottawa born player, of Swiss descent.

    In the excellent book "Lions In Winter", by Chris Goyens and Allan Turowetz, Joliat comments on his being aquired from the Saskatoon Shieks for the popular Lalonde in 1922. As Habs fans were upset at seing a french speaking player leave, Joliat adds, "Still, it was easier for (GM Leo) Dandurand to trade for me than for a Dick Smith."

    The Canadiens other big star of the time, possibly the first true superstar of hockey, Howie Morenz, also has a Swiss background.

    Maguire further clarifies the myth's mystique by stating that the reasons the Habs survived the 1930's doldrums had nothing to do with the territorial rule, and everything to do with Lach and Blake working out brilliantly with a player the Habs didn't have in their future plans.

    "The rest of the league passed on Montreal GM Tommy Gorman's offer of a trade for what seemed to be a very brittle but explosive goal scorer named Maurice Richard. Richard had suffered injury after injury in his first three years of pro. Gorman tried to unload him but nobody wanted him."

    "Needless to say Richard's coming out party in 1943-44 and the subsequent effect he had on the game in the next 17 years has been well documented but suffice to say, these were the three major reasons (Lach, Blake, Richard) for the success of the Habs over a nearly two decade span - not some bullcrap rule that although was well intentioned did nothing to extend Montreal's stay in the NHL at that time. In fact they were even worse in 1940 than they were in 1936."

    Bolstered by the "Punch Line", the Canadiens would win the Stanley Cup in 1944 and 1946, but Maguire states that there were two other pieces to the puzzle that would ensure Canadien supremacy for the coming decades.

    "It happened in 1946 and 1947, respectively. With the French Canadian rule now rescinded and Montreal rolling with two Cup victories in a three year span something else was going to be needed for the franchise to rise to the extreme greatness they would see in a few short years."

    To the distress of Maple Leafs fans, they unwittingly assisted the Canadiens a second time, and in similar fashion. The first had been the firing of coach Dick Irvin Sr. years earlier, who continued to be as successful with Montreal as he'd been with Chicago and Toronto.

    "Toronto owner Conn Smythe fired Frank Selke Sr. and Montreal quickly hired him. Selke had a vision about a series of teams in the minor leagues that would be stocked with players that Montreal would sign to C forms. These minor league teams and the players on them were soon to be known as a farm system."

    "This was the origin of the farm system as we know it today. It took the rest of the NHL 2-3 years to catch on to this idea but they did and they've all benefited from it but Montreal had a tremendous head start and in some instances they purchased the rights to an entire league to get a certain player."

    "They did this for Jean Beliveau and Bobby Rousseau. In Beliveau's case it didn't matter because he told the Habs to get stuffed anyway. He was happy in Quebec and there were only two players in the NHL making more money than Jean who was in the QSHL. That was Rocket Richard and Gordie Howe. Finally Selke was able to sign Beliveau in 1953 when as he put it, " I opened up the vault and said help yourself Jean!" Great quote"

    "The move in 1947 was the hiring of Sam Pollock. Pollock came under the tutelage of Selke and finally in 1963 became his successor as GM of the Canadiens."

    "In 1963 the NHL finally realized there were a glut of players, post second World War 2 births, that were coming of age to play in the NHL and even with the C form system, stones were being left unturned. For the first time a draft was implemented. There was never any thought that this would one day become the life blood of the NHL."

    "In 1963 the NHL finally realized there were a glut of players, post second World War 2 births, that were coming of age to play in the NHL and even with the C form system, stones were being left unturned. For the first time a draft was implemented. There was never any thought that this would one day become the life blood of the NHL."

    "At the time the six NHL teams would draft in a rotating order any player who had not signed a C form. Ken Dryden was a draft pick of the Boston Bruins. Boston traded Dryden to Montreal.
    In 1963, the French Canadian rule was brought back for the Montreal Canadiens. It was not necessary, no question about it but Selke and Pollock worked a sweet deal and got it back on the books however the same rules applied. The player could not have signed a C form with any other team."

    "From 1963-1967 none of the players Montreal selected played one minute in the NHL, ever. Finally in 1968, they drafted their first live one. A goalie named Michel Plasse."


    "In 1969, it was determined that this would be the final year of the draft in this manner and the sponsorship of Junior A teams would cease to be. All players were to be 20 years of age or older and they would be eligible for a Universal Amateur Draft. Montreal was given one final kick at the French Canadian can and they made the most of it by selecting Rejean Houle and Marc Tardif. That was it for the French rule."

    "By then Sam Pollock or Trader Sam as he was known, was working magic year in and year out on draft day and by flipping players in Montreal's farm system that had been so expertly set up years before by Selke and ran by Pollock, for draft picks. Players like Guy Lafleur, Steve Shutt, Mario Tremblay, several others, were selected with picks that Pollock acquired through trades."

    This should clear up any misconception about this long believed fallacy, born primarily by frustrated anti-Montreal fans who for decades suffered through parade after Stanley Cup parade.
    Dernière modification par Habfanman ; 31/08/2009 à 16h25.

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